Re: What do I mean by the word "won?"

I would suggest that a big contributor to this situation and trend is
the hesitancy by many pastors to define a position from the pulpit.

One reason is simply a matter of being sufficiently personally informed
so as to be able to state and defend an ancient world view with a
measure of confidence.

But there is also the issue of divisiveness. There is little pastoral
hesitancy if one has a strong YEC position. You just follow the literal
word with no acknowledgement of scholarship on the matter.

But in many churches, were the pastor (or other leadership) to suddenly
embrace publically an ancient creation, there will likely be a mixed
response from the congregation with uncertain results. Some notables
throughout history have spoken to the ultimate cost of this type of
abdication of truth-speaking, but it happens nonetheless, choosing
instead to fry other fish.

This sort of volitional apathy is a strong and constant ally of the YEC
cause, which is more organized and vocal.

In our area, I am trying to launch an effort to bring to the attention
of church leaders (at least some of them, for starters) the real and
largely unrecognized costs of this lack of teaching and engagement. I'm
open to any ideas. I think I posted the four principal costs I've
identified on this list before, but will again if anyone is interested.
Ideas anyone? I know that sound information and open conversation are
part of the answer, but there is a problem in scaling up productive
conversation effectively. Ideas?

There are certainly (mostly pretty liberal, in my experience)
denominations that are by and large comfortable with TE. But there are
far more denominations and pulpits that are silent, taking no position,
thereby elevating the stage and sound system volume for the more vocal
YECs.

It's a shame that there is a struggle for the media to even understand
and articulate the non-YEC perspective. Perhaps we have a real
opportunity to start there with a dispassionate offer to help clarify
some of those considerations for specific people in the local media?

JimA

Glenn Morton wrote:

>I don't care what meaning Burgy puts on 'won' and I don't care whether
>or not anyone takes his posts seriously. He is right. The ASA can crow
>all they want about their position and their influence. Frankly on the
>issue of evolution, we are losing the churches. Like it or not, the
>churches which teach YEC are growing. Those that don't are shrinking in
>attendance. That means the the next generation belongs to the YECs.
>
>One of the problems in all areas of human endeavors is that when we
>surround ourselves with people who agree with us, we think the world
>matches that demographic profile. Maybe this is why you don't think they
>have won or the situation is dire. This could be said of me, but I don't
>go to a church where TE is taught. The pastor and congregation are YEC.
>Maybe I too have surrounded myself with a certain viewpoint and thus
>believe that they have won, but at least the group I am with is not one
>I agree with.
>
>Lutheran membership has basically remained flat over the past 50 years
>while the population of the US hasn't. That means a relative shrinkage.
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>>[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of George Murphy
>>Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:57 PM
>>To: asa@calvin.edu; John and Carol Burgeson
>>Subject: Re: What do I mean by the word "won?"
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "John and Carol Burgeson" <burgytwo@juno.com>
>>To: <asa@calvin.edu>
>>Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 4:17 PM
>>Subject: What do I mean by the word "won?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Randy wrote: " I have to weigh in with George on this one. Without
>>>appropriate qualification, the headline "The YEC's have won" is
>>>incorrect, conveys the
>>>wrong impression, and fails to motivate us. To be sure,
>>>
>>>
>>your specific
>>
>>
>>>clarifications help somewhat (though even those, I believe, might be
>>>overstatements), and I agree that in certain segments of
>>>
>>>
>>society and in
>>
>>
>>>some
>>>aspects the YEC's have, so to speak, "won."
>>>
>>>Two things.
>>>
>>>1. I meant to spark rebuttals -- there fore I did not
>>>
>>>
>>define the word
>>
>>
>>>"won" in my original posts. I quite agree with your "appropriate
>>>qualifications" comment.
>>>
>>>2. I am, myself, quite convinced that the YECs have "won,"
>>>
>>>
>>although I
>>
>>
>>>will admit I am not sure exactly how to define this.
>>>
>>>Let me try.
>>>
>>>The Flat earthers did not "win." They have disappeared, for all
>>>intents and purposes.
>>>
>>>The worshippers of Zeus did not "win."
>>>
>>>The followers of Joseph Smith "won." That is, although their
>>>historical base is nonsense at least as silly as that of the YECs,
>>>they have, nonetheless, established themselves as not only a viable
>>>enterprise, but one which is growing and shows no sign of
>>>
>>>
>>ever fading
>>
>>
>>>away.
>>>
>>>At one time, I though seriously that the YECs would, in time, fade
>>>away like the flat earthers and the Zeus worshippers. Then
>>>
>>>
>>I thought
>>
>>
>>>that, at east, they would plateau into a small, nagging, irritating
>>>sect But that has not happened. They have been growing in size, and
>>>more importantly in influence, over the 20 some years I have been
>>>following their antics. Therefore, I say that they have "won." They
>>>have now established themselves, like he Mormons, as a viable
>>>enterprise, one that shows no sign of decay.
>>>
>>>Will YEC nonsense get taught in public schools (George's worry)?
>>>Probably, at least in the ID form (wink -- we all know who the
>>>designer is). Will public schools themselves fade away --
>>>
>>>
>>or at least
>>
>>
>>>diminish in population as the privates take over? Almost certainly.
>>>What will be taught in the privates? You guessed it.
>>>
>>>Well, that's my take on it, anyway. Oh yes, I don't take
>>>
>>>
>>this dialog
>>
>>
>>>all that seriously. Too much of it is "off the top of the head. Me,
>>>particularly. Perhaps that is why George is always so sure he knows
>>>what I am talking about. And why he is so often incorrect in that
>>>assumption.
>>>
>>>
>>In this case my error about what you meant is due to your
>>using the phrase
>>"the YECs have won" in a strange way. When people
>>(correctly) say something
>>like "Evolution has won in the scientific community" [the
>>last 4 words being
>>of course an essential qualification], they mean that the
>>vast majority of
>>scientists accept some form of evolutionary theory rather
>>than special
>>creation, and there seems to be no likelihood that that will
>>change. They
>>don't mean something like "Evolution isn't going to go away."
>>
>>But with the meaning you give here to "the YECs have won," most of my
>>earlier criticisms don't apply. But I still think you're being too
>>pessimistic about the situation.
>>
>>I apologize for taking your posts seriously. From now on
>>I'll assume that I
>>shouldn't do that unless you tell say otherwise.
>>
>>Shalom
>>George
>>http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Sun Mar 27 00:28:35 2005