divine "intervention" (was: science & theology, part 1 resend)

I found this in my "drafts." I forgot to post it the other day. :P

I wrote:
> "God of the Gaps: God is only involved in things...of which we have no
> understanding. When you hear someone talking about God "intervening"
> to do something, you're hearing this...." 

On Mar 13, 2005, at 3:21 AM, Don Winterstein wrote:
   
> I'm repeating myself, but: 

Hi Don,

There's nothing wrong with repeating yourself, but having thought about
it some more, I still don't quite agree.

> The second sentence is often wrong.  I talk about God's "intervening,"
> but in no sense do I believe that God is only involved in things of
> which we have no understanding.  Rather, I believe that God is
> involved in one way or another with everything that happens. 

I believe you and am not doubting your orthodoxy. I do wish you'd use a
different word. All the definitions of "intervene" I can find have the
connotation of involvement in something in which one was previously
uninvolved:

Webster's on "intervene" from (http://tinyurl.com/72585):
1 : to occur, fall, or come between points of time or events
2 : to enter or appear as an irrelevant or extraneous feature or
circumstance
3 : to come in or between by way of hindrance or modification
<intervene to stop a fight>
4 : to occur or lie between two things
5 a : to become a third party to a legal proceeding begun by others for
the protection of an alleged interest b : to interfere usually by force
or threat of force in another nation's internal affairs especially to
compel or prevent an action

dictionary.com:
        1. To come, appear, or lie between two things.
        2. To come or occur between two periods or points of time.
        3. To occur as an extraneous or unplanned circumstance.
        4. a. To involve oneself in a situation so as to alter or hinder an
action or development.
                b. To interfere, usually through force or threat of force, in the
affairs of another nation.
        5. Law. To enter into a suit as a third party for one's own
interests.

Cambridge: "to intentionally become involved in a difficult situation
in order to improve it or prevent it from getting worse."

> I talk about intervening because I believe (1) God is distinct
> from the world, 

OK.

> (2) the world's capabilities are limited,

Are the limited or wholly dependent on God?

> and (3) from time to time the world would not do God's will unless he
> manipulated it in such a way as to violate some of its built-in rules
> (e.g., Jesus' resurrection).  If and when God finds it necessary to
> violate the rules, he "intervenes."  Whenever he otherwise influences
> behavior, he simply "acts."   God has room to influence the
> world without violating built-in rules and does so.  

If Lazarus decomposes to dust, I can say "God is acting." If Lazarus
hobbles out of his tomb on Jesus's command, should I say God is
"intervening," or "acting miraculously?" I'd prefer the second. I don't
think He is more or less involved in either process, but the word
"intervene" certainly carries that connotation.

It seems to me that He always simply "acts." Sometimes, his actions are
surprising and unexplainable. I have been trying for a long time to
figure out if we can tell the difference between God's routine actions
and "built-in rules." I'd be happier with "acts" vs. "acts
miraculously" rather than "acts" vs. "intervenes."

>  All Christians with whom I've discussed the matter believe God is
> involved in their lives.  They have some limited understanding of
> their own lives.  Therefore, they do not believe that God is only
> involved in things of which they have no understanding. 

Most of the Christians that I hear talk about such things seem to keep
this belief compartmentalized. It's part of their theology, but finds
little practical application. Since it is not applied, I think they get
into "gaps"-type thinking even though it's not part of their declared
theology.

For instance, in the origins debate, I often hear or read folks arguing
over to what extent or how often God "intervened" in the process. The
special creationists might say, pretty much the whole thing.
Progressive creationists might say, every now and then. Theistic
evolutionists might say, only at the start. Since we all say we believe
that God is involved in all things, then the YECs talk of the others as
having left God out of creation. If you read their literature or listen
to their lectures, they rant about godless processes and
uniformitarianism. In part, what they are rejecting is that God was not
doing the creating.

So when I wrote:

> "God of the Gaps: God is only involved in things...of which we have no
> understanding. When you hear someone talking about God "intervening"
> to do something, you're hearing this...." 

I did not mean to say that the person saying God "intervened" is
consciously denying God's providence. What I think they are doing is
taking it for granted. Either way, you end up with "gaps" thinking.

Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. That was not my intent.

Bill Dozier
Minister of Silly Guitar Sounds
------
"The problem is we have too many Indians and not enough chickens." --
an unknown induhvidual
Received on Sat Mar 19 01:51:30 2005