Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?

If I am mistaken about the prevailing paradigm in the sciences, then I would
concede the point. Not that whether I concede or not matters, lol, I dont
mean that!

My impression is that the leading paradigm in both sciences and the arts, is
anti-Christian specifically, and the reason for that is not YEC.

Apparently you and many others think I am wrong, I hope that is the case.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Moore" <joelmoore@psu.edu>
To: "jack syme" <drsyme@cablespeed.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?

>I think you're mistaken about the prevailing paradigm in the sciences.
>Among the most elite scientists and some of the most well known
>popularizers, yes, many or perhaps most are philosophical materialists
>(i.e., only matter, no spiritual realm). But I just heard today from a
>sociologist of religion that more than 60% of those with postgraduate
>degrees believe there is a God. My personal observations from the several
>years I have been involved in scientific research, I'd say there are a
>significant number of scientists who believe in God. In fact, in my time at
>a larger research university, my limited observations are that humanities
>and social science faculty are overall more hostile to Christianity than
>science faculty. And as a geologist, I'd like to echo the sentiments
>expressed by others that YECs (especially) and IDers (somewhat because it
>won't renounce YEC so it often appears as creationism in disguise) make
>Christians look stupid and give non-believing scientists a good excuse to
>not even consider Christianity.
>
> I'd say Christianity is much more threatened by nominal Christianity and
> by general greed (acquisitive materialism rather than philosophical
> materialism) then by atheistic secularism.
>
> -Joel
>
> At 2:10 PM -0500 on 2/18/05, jack syme wrote:
>>Wasnt Anthony Flew converted to theism from ID arguments? Not from the ID
>>folks, but from teleological arguments. He was not converted to theism
>>through the Gospel. IMO that is something, it is a step in the right
>>direction for him.
>>
>>I guess my entire thread here is based on an underlying assumption that I
>>thought was obvious but maybe isnt shared by others on this list.
>>
>>I assume that there is a bias in our society, scientific or otherwise,
>>against anything spiritual whether it be YEC or any other form of belief.
>>I think that the prevailing paradigm in the sciences is that there is no
>>god whatsoever, there is no spiritual realm, there is only matter and
>>engergy. And I mean this not in the sense that this is the only way to do
>>science, but in the sense that this is considered the way things are.
>>This ultimately comes from the pride of Man, and his desire to be the
>>supreme being of the universe. There is a bias against us as Christians,
>>whether we are YEC or not. It is that battle that I am most concerned
>>with.
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry M. Gray"
>><grayt@lamar.colostate.edu>
>>To: <asa@calvin.edu>
>>Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:59 PM
>>Subject: Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?
>>
>>>I'm not even sure I would say that atheistic materialism is the "enemy".
>>>Isn't atheistic materialism just the religion of the unconverted modern
>>>intellectual? Are we really surprised that people are atheistic
>>>materialists if they're not believers?
>>>
>>>Why would anyone be convinced of theism apart from conversion? The only
>>>way Richard Dawkins is going to give up his atheism is if he is converted
>>>to Jesus Christ--it's not going to be because some YEC or ID argument
>>>persuades him of the inadequacy of Darwinism (although admittedly,
>>>sometimes it does seem works that way).
>>>
>>>Atheistic materialists are just acting consistently with their religion
>>>in their resistance to all things theistic (whether it's creation,
>>>design, life after death, or whatever). If this is where our culture is,
>>>then our primary job is to preach the gospel and demonstrate its fruits
>>>in our churches and in our lives. We can and should continue to develop
>>>Christian theist perspectives on cosmology, evolution, AND other
>>>sciences, but it's bizarre, in my mind, for us to expect atheistic
>>>materialists to be sympathetic to our religious interpretations of these
>>>things.
>>>
>>>Perhaps this is another argument for "methodological naturalism"--i.e.
>>>the ability to cooperate and communicate with those who don't share our
>>>religious perspectives. The public nature of science and science
>>>education should cause us to find common ground where possible even with
>>>the "enemy".
>>>
>>>This is also why this debate is fundamentally an intra nos debate. TE vs.
>>>YEC vs. ID etc. is a debate among Christians or theists. While I disagree
>>>strongly with YEC, I'm not sure I can say it's "silly". YEC rises out of
>>>prior commitments to a view of Genesis that override everything. It's a
>>>mistaken view of Genesis, in my opinion, but I must say that if you have
>>>that view of Genesis, you are being entirely consistent to come up with
>>>some of the fantastical things that YEC's do in their science. Likewise,
>>>I disagree with ID at many points, but the I share commitments of ID,
>>>that God created, designed, and upholds the bacterial flagella (and
>>>everything else for that matter),.
>>>
>>>Atheists have all sorts of things to ridicule in Christianity besides YEC
>>>theology/science: the resurrection of Jesus, the second coming of Jesus,
>>>believing that God hears and does anything in response to prayer, that
>>>story in the OT about Elijah and the prophets of Baal, inspiration of
>>>scripture--the list could go on and on.
>>>
>>>You may infer from this post that there is no value in apologetics. For
>>>those of you who know about the apologetics debate, I will admit that I
>>>am an apologetical presuppositionalist and not an evidentialist. The work
>>>of apologetics is, in large part, our giving an answer--but it's always
>>>in the context of "our" -- we're coming at these questions from a faith
>>>perspective. I'm not sure that "our" arguments are all that convincing
>>>apart from our fundamental faith perspective. Thus, back to
>>>conversion...and here it is the "gospel that is the power of God to the
>>>salvation of everyone who believes". It's not convincing arguments about
>>>bacterial flagella or causing people to doubt the legitimacy of
>>>radiometric dating, it's the proclamation of the cross of Christ and
>>>God's mercy to sinners thereby displayed. The power of God for salvation
>>>accompanies that preaching! Yes--supernaturally! It penetrates the stoney
>>>hearts of unbelievers by the work of the Holy Spirit. And by that means
>>>are men and women converted. (Talk about something to ridicule! Who could
>>>believe such a thing?!?)
>>>
>>>So what's the enemy? It's unbelief, rejection of the gospel. And the
>>>preaching of the gospel is God's power against that enemy.
>>>
>>>TG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Michael Roberts wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"When YECs cease from distortion and name-calling I might begin to
>>>>listen to
>>>>them. I am afraid they are a bigger obstacle to the spreading of the
>>>>Gospel
>>>>than Richard Dawkins"
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>"Glenn and George have both explained why YEC is as much the enemy of
>>>>the
>>>>Gospel as atheistic materialism. "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>These comments are an example of why I started this thread in the first
>>>>place. YEC is a problem, but a problem greater than atheistic
>>>>materialism? I hardly think so. What philosophy is rampant in our
>>>>culture? It certainly isnt YEC it is materialism. At least creationists
>>>>get part of it right, the most important part too. Glenn and George
>>>>pointed out examples where YEC silliness is a barrier to bringing the
>>>>Gospel to people, generally people that are already caught in the trap
>>>>of atheistic materialism. Within the Church YEC can certainly be
>>>>responsible for making someone question their faith, but it ultimately
>>>>is atheistic materialism that captures them if they give in to
>>>>skepticism. The ultimate enemy is materialism, not YEC.
>>>>
>>>>And I see ID treated with virtually the same disdain on this list as
>>>>YEC. I hardly think you can accuse ID of being the same barrier to
>>>>spreading the gospel as YEC.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>_________________
>>>Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
>>>Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
>>>Fort Collins, Colorado 80523
>>>grayt@lamar.colostate.edu http://www.chm.colostate.edu/~grayt/
>>>phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801
>
>
Received on Fri Feb 18 22:58:04 2005