Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?

I think one should be careful not to overgeneralize like this. There may be
a larger number of individuals in any of these categories that share a
given perspective. But it doesn't constitute a collective bias. That sort
of broad brush stroke could be compared to the way some strict creationists
takes "science" to task over some issue. JimA
 
Original Message:
-----------------
From: jack syme drsyme@cablespeed.com
I guess my entire thread here is based on an underlying assumption that I
thought was obvious but maybe isnt shared by others on this list.

I assume that there is a bias in our society, scientific or otherwise,
against anything spiritual whether it be YEC or any other form of belief.
I
think that the prevailing paradigm in the sciences is that there is no god
whatsoever, there is no spiritual realm, there is only matter and engergy.
And I mean this not in the sense that this is the only way to do science,
but in the sense that this is considered the way things are. This
ultimately comes from the pride of Man, and his desire to be the supreme
being of the universe. There is a bias against us as Christians, whether
we
are YEC or not. It is that battle that I am most concerned with.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry M. Gray" <grayt@lamar.colostate.edu>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?

> I'm not even sure I would say that atheistic materialism is the "enemy".
> Isn't atheistic materialism just the religion of the unconverted modern
> intellectual? Are we really surprised that people are atheistic
> materialists if they're not believers?
>
> Why would anyone be convinced of theism apart from conversion? The only
> way Richard Dawkins is going to give up his atheism is if he is converted
> to Jesus Christ--it's not going to be because some YEC or ID argument
> persuades him of the inadequacy of Darwinism (although admittedly,
> sometimes it does seem works that way).
>
> Atheistic materialists are just acting consistently with their religion
in
> their resistance to all things theistic (whether it's creation, design,
> life after death, or whatever). If this is where our culture is, then our
> primary job is to preach the gospel and demonstrate its fruits in our
> churches and in our lives. We can and should continue to develop
Christian
> theist perspectives on cosmology, evolution, AND other sciences, but it's
> bizarre, in my mind, for us to expect atheistic materialists to be
> sympathetic to our religious interpretations of these things.
>
> Perhaps this is another argument for "methodological naturalism"--i.e.
the
> ability to cooperate and communicate with those who don't share our
> religious perspectives. The public nature of science and science
education
> should cause us to find common ground where possible even with the
> "enemy".
>
> This is also why this debate is fundamentally an intra nos debate. TE vs.
> YEC vs. ID etc. is a debate among Christians or theists. While I disagree
> strongly with YEC, I'm not sure I can say it's "silly". YEC rises out of
> prior commitments to a view of Genesis that override everything. It's a
> mistaken view of Genesis, in my opinion, but I must say that if you have
> that view of Genesis, you are being entirely consistent to come up with
> some of the fantastical things that YEC's do in their science. Likewise,
I
> disagree with ID at many points, but the I share commitments of ID, that
> God created, designed, and upholds the bacterial flagella (and everything
> else for that matter),.
>
> Atheists have all sorts of things to ridicule in Christianity besides YEC
> theology/science: the resurrection of Jesus, the second coming of Jesus,
> believing that God hears and does anything in response to prayer, that
> story in the OT about Elijah and the prophets of Baal, inspiration of
> scripture--the list could go on and on.
>
> You may infer from this post that there is no value in apologetics. For
> those of you who know about the apologetics debate, I will admit that I
am
> an apologetical presuppositionalist and not an evidentialist. The work of
> apologetics is, in large part, our giving an answer--but it's always in
> the context of "our" -- we're coming at these questions from a faith
> perspective. I'm not sure that "our" arguments are all that convincing
> apart from our fundamental faith perspective. Thus, back to
> conversion...and here it is the "gospel that is the power of God to the
> salvation of everyone who believes". It's not convincing arguments about
> bacterial flagella or causing people to doubt the legitimacy of
> radiometric dating, it's the proclamation of the cross of Christ and
God's
> mercy to sinners thereby displayed. The power of God for salvation
> accompanies that preaching! Yes--supernaturally! It penetrates the stoney
> hearts of unbelievers by the work of the Holy Spirit. And by that means
> are men and women converted. (Talk about something to ridicule! Who could
> believe such a thing?!?)
>
> So what's the enemy? It's unbelief, rejection of the gospel. And the
> preaching of the gospel is God's power against that enemy.
>
> TG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>Michael Roberts wrote:
>>
>>"When YECs cease from distortion and name-calling I might begin to listen
>>to
>>them. I am afraid they are a bigger obstacle to the spreading of the
>>Gospel
>>than Richard Dawkins"
>>
>>and
>>
>>"Glenn and George have both explained why YEC is as much the enemy of the
>>Gospel as atheistic materialism. "
>>
>>
>>These comments are an example of why I started this thread in the first
>>place. YEC is a problem, but a problem greater than atheistic
>>materialism? I hardly think so. What philosophy is rampant in our
>>culture? It certainly isnt YEC it is materialism. At least creationists
>>get part of it right, the most important part too. Glenn and George
>>pointed out examples where YEC silliness is a barrier to bringing the
>>Gospel to people, generally people that are already caught in the trap of
>>atheistic materialism. Within the Church YEC can certainly be
responsible
>>for making someone question their faith, but it ultimately is atheistic
>>materialism that captures them if they give in to skepticism. The
>>ultimate enemy is materialism, not YEC.
>>
>>And I see ID treated with virtually the same disdain on this list as YEC.
>>I hardly think you can accuse ID of being the same barrier to spreading
>>the gospel as YEC.
>
>
> --
> _________________
> Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
> Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
> Fort Collins, Colorado 80523
> grayt@lamar.colostate.edu http://www.chm.colostate.edu/~grayt/
> phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801

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Received on Fri Feb 18 20:06:54 2005