Re: have we forgotten who the enemy is?

For the record, it is not a matter of understanding, I
understand, I just dont agree. I agree that YEC is a
problem. And I am concerned about its potential for
causing someone to lose their faith. I am sure we have
all been through this, having to struggle with what YEC
says the bible says, and what science says. I am also
concerned about it being a barrier to evangelization.

But the pervasiveness of atheistic naturalism is a much
much bigger problem imo.

Whether you like it or not, the YECers are our brothers
and sisters in Christ. They are part of the same body as
we are. I think we have more in common with them, than
non believers.

Consider this, would you rather have your children be
deluded YECers that have heard the Gospel and are
believers, or an "enlightened" atheist?

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 14:07:29 -0000
  "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>
wrote:
>Glenn you are spot on here. It is a pity that others
>don't understand. If
>one has geological understanding then YEC is so laughable
>that it reduces
>Jesus to Coco the clown. Add to that the continual
>systematic
>misrepresentation by YEC leaders to the cheers of their
>followers and you
>have the best argument for atheism there is.
>
>I know YECs talk of new paradigms etc but that is just
>intellectual icing to
>complete nonsense.
>
>Michael
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Glenn Morton" <glennmorton@entouch.net>
>To: "'jack syme'" <drsyme@cablespeed.com>;
><asa@calvin.edu>
>Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:06 PM
>Subject: RE: have we forgotten who the enemy is?
>
>
>> Feb 18, 2005
>>
>> Jack wrote:
>>
>> > These comments are an example of why I started this
>>thread in
>> > the first
>> > place. YEC is a problem, but a problem greater than
>>atheistic
>> > materialism? I hardly think so. What philosophy is
>>rampant
>> > in our culture?
>> > It certainly isnt YEC it is materialism.
>>
>> Jack, what you miss is that I know many atheists who
>>actively fight
>> Christianity are former young-earth creationists. YEC
>>actually drives
>> people to that atheistic materialistic world view you
>>think is such a
>> problem. In fact, I think one of the fastest ways to
>>atheism is to teach
>> a person YEC (which tells its adherents that if
>>evolution is true then
>> the Bible is false) and send that person into the study
>>of science.
>> When they come to believe that evolution is true (which
>>most of them
>> will do) they then do what they have been programmed to
>>do--reject the
>> Bible as false. And thus another atheist has arisen.
>>
>> Indeed in my own life I have struggled against becoming
>>an atheist. I
>> see YEC nonsense and wonder if god is real because it
>>seems that one
>> must deny all reality to believe in him. And on the
>>other hand, those
>> who say it figurative cause me problems as well because
>>I think it
>> reduces any divine communication (see my posts here on
>>the noisy channel
>> theorem).
>>
>>
>> At least
>> > creationists get part of
>> > it right, the most important part too. Glenn and
>>George pointed out
>> > examples where YEC silliness is a barrier to bringing
>>the
>> > Gospel to people,
>> > generally people that are already caught in the trap
>>of atheistic
>> > materialism.
>>
>> Wrong. Go read Ed Babinski's book Leaving the Fold or
>>even peruse some
>> of the stories I have collected at
>> http://home.entouch.net/dmd/person.htm
>> YEC drives people into atheism because the YECs teach
>>that if evolution
>> is true, then the Bible is false. Well, evolution is
>>true--what does
>> that imply if you believe the YEC teaching.
>>
>> Don't believe that this is what they are teaching? Try
>>these
>>
>> "To believe in evolution is to deny a universal paradise
>>before
>> Adam, because evolution necessarily implies that before
>>Adam there was
>> struggle, cruelty and brutality, animals eating animals,
>>and death. Is
>> the world going to be restored to that? If you believe
>>in evolution,
>> you must deny a universal paradise before Adam (because
>>you believe that
>> there was death and struggle millions of years before
>>Adam), and also at
>> the end of time (because the Bible teaches the world
>>will be restored to
>> what it used to be). Thus, evolution not only strikes
>>at the heart and
>> the foundation but at the hope of Christianity as well."
>>~ Ken Ham, The
>> Lie, (San Diego: Master Books, 1987), p. 77
>>
>> "Do we believe the Bible or do we believe the
>>speculations of
>> scientists? Scientists believe death began millions of
>>years before man
>> evolved onto the scene. The Bible records that death
>>began with Adam."
>> ~ Jobe Martin The Evolution of a Creationist, (Rockwall,
>>Texas: Biblical
>> Discipleship Publishers, 1994), p. 45.
>>
>> "The God of the Bible is a God of wisdom and power and
>>love, and such a
>> God could never be guilty of such an incredibly
>>inefficient and cruel
>> scheme of development as evolution." ~ Henry M. Morris,
>>A History of
>> Modern Creationism, (San Diego: Master Book Publishers,
>>1984), p. 328
>>
>> "Thus the Biblical cosmologist finally must recognize
>>that the
>> geological ages can have had no true objective existence
>>at all, if the
>> Bible is true. There must, therefore, be some better
>>explanation for
>> the geological strata and the fossils which they
>>contain." ~ Henry M.
>> Morris, Biblical Cosmology and Modern Science, (Nutley,
>>New Jersey:
>> Craig Press, 1970), p. 24
>>
>> "Can that texts be trusted to tell Christians the
>>essential truth? If
>> it is clearly wrong in its science and history, areas
>>where moderns have
>> the sharpest insight, should the Bible be trusted in the
>>much murkier
>> areas of faith and ethics?" ~ John Mark Reynolds, "The
>>Bible and
>> Science: Toward a Rational Harmonization," in Robert T.
>>Walsh, editor,
>> The Third International Conference on Creationism,
>>(Pittsburgh: Creation
>> Science Fellowship, 1994), p. 454.
>>
>> "Evolution is the most wasteful, inefficient, and
>>heartless process that
>> could ever be devised by which to produce man. If
>>evolution is true,
>> then billions upon billions of animals, have suffered
>>and died in a
>> cruel struggle for existence for a billion years, and
>>many entire kinds
>> (e.g. dinosaurs) have appeared and then died out long
>>before man
>> evolved. The God of the Bible could never be guilty of
>>such a cruel and
>> pointless charade as this." ~ Henry M. Morris, Biblical
>>Basis for Modern
>> Science, (Grand Rapids: Baker Bookhouse, 1984), p. 114
>>
>> "What all of this means is that, as evolutionism is the
>>foundation of
>> all that is false and harmful, so creationsim must be
>>the foundation of
>> everything true and good." ~ Henry M. Morris, The Long
>>War Against God,
>> (Grand Rapids: Baker Bookhouse, 1989), p. 304
>>
>> "The entire scientific community has accepted the great
>>age of the
>> universe; indeed, it has built all its science upon that
>>supposition.
>> They will not give it up without a fight. In fact, they
>>will never give
>> it up, even if it means compromising their reason or
>>even their
>> professional integrity, for to admit creation is to
>>admit the existence
>> of the God of the Bible." Paul M. Steidl, _The Earth,
>>The Stars, and The
>> Bible_ (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed , 1979)
>>p. 94.
>>
>> "But of course, 'none dare call it compromise!' No
>>evangelical would
>> ever admit to compromising with evolutionary humansim.
>> They simply call
>> it 'interpretation.' From our point of view, standard
>>system of
>> evolutionary geological ages is a clear-cut compromise
>>with atheistic
>> evolutionism, and it is very sad that Christians who
>>profess to believe
>> the Bible as the Word of God will not acknowledge this.
>> Not only is
>> theistic evolution such a compromise, but so is
>>progressive creation,
>> the day/age theory, the gap theory, the poetical theory,
>>the local-flood
>> theory, and the tranquil flood theory." ~ Henry M.
>>Morris, A History of
>> Modern Creationism, (San Diego: Master Book Publishers,
>>1984), p. 329
>>
>> I could go on and on with this. They set people up for
>>moving to
>> atheism.
>>
>>
>> Within the Church YEC can certainly be
>> > responsible for making
>> > someone question their faith, but it ultimately is
>>atheistic
>> > materialism
>> > that captures them if they give in to skepticism.
>> The
>> > ultimate enemy is
>> > materialism, not YEC.
>>
>> Not with statements like those above.
>>
>> >
>> > And I see ID treated with virtually the same disdain
>>on this
>> > list as YEC. I
>> > hardly think you can accuse ID of being the same
>>barrier to
>> > spreading the
>> > gospel as YEC.
>>
>> Anything that teaches that what we see with our eyes
>>can't be true
>> because it makes the bible false is the same sort of
>>barrier.
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Fri Feb 18 11:48:22 2005