Re: Spellbound? (was Re: Cobb County)

Hi Christopher, you wrote:

As I don't know Hebrew and I am not a scholar on ancient Hebrew writings and traditions, I am not in a position to pass any judgment on the intelligent design in the numero-geometrical structure of the Bible's opening Hebrew words, as you put it.

Your words make it abundantly clear that either, (a) you have not bothered to acquaint yourself with the evidences of supernatural ID that I am bringing forward or, (b) you have not understood how that evidence has been gathered (this despite the fact that in my introduction to the page http://homepage.virgin.net/tgvernon.jenkins/Wonders.htm, I make it abundantly clear that no detailed knowledge of the Hebrew language is required). From the outset, therefore, this has been an _unbalanced_ exchange, and you can have no idea of the problems you face in meeting my request for a reasonable naturalistic explanation of these phenomena. You might now wish to redress the balance and attempt such explanation.

To the best of my fallible interpretations, Genesis was written within the cultural and scientific knowledge of the day, and as I have said before, it is the theology, not the science, which is
important in Genesis. It totally puzzles me why you keep trying to use the Bible as a scientific explanation of observed phenomena. Also, as you say that MN is inadequate, then it behooves you to provide a superior model based on testable supernaturalism.

From my standpoint, the Bible is a body of _revealed truth_, i.e. it provides information that is completely beyond our ability to uncover, or deduce, for ourselves; information that is independent of time, and thus relevant to _every_ generation. So where does 'scientific knowledge of the day' fit into this picture? The simple fact is that it doesn't; for how can the effects of a series of divine fiats be reduced to the scientific jargon of the day, or of any day, for that matter!

As I have said before, science is about seeking scientific truth, and through science I try and get the picture of the scientific truth as to how the universe came into existence. But as a Christians I also like to get the Christian truth through my faith that God created the universe, so yes, I am striving to get the whole picture through these separate truths.

God alone knows how we and the universe came into being, and in Genesis 1 and 2 He has graciously provided an outline of the process, complete with timetable. A cursory reading of the Scriptures reveals that this account of beginnings was invariably accepted as a basic truth - in particular, by our Lord.

As to the scriptural warnings which you have previously mentioned, I really don't understand what context they have here. If you are implying that Satan wants to deceive, that is certainly true at least as far as our faith in God is concerned, but to claim that Satan is somehow creating a fake universe, with, for example, starlight created in transit to fool astronomers that the universe is billions of years old when it is really only a few thousand, is total and complete nonsense.

What I fail to understand is why any Christian should lightly accept MN (tailored for atheists, surely!) and stoutly maintain that the supernatural can have no influence in the realm of science. I ask, Who decreed this? - and on what basis? If we accept that the Holy Spirit is a reality and, like the wind, "...bloweth where it listeth..." (Jn.3:8) - even entering the heart of some lowly laboratory assistant - then why should we deny Satan the possibility of like power to deceive? Christopher, your presumptions as a scientist are based, not on hard fact, but rather on hope! Can't you see that this is just another example of man making up his own rules as he goes along - as God's word informs us he would.

 And, as I have shown in my previous message, the leaders of the young earth creationist movement like Henry and John Morris lie, and lying for God is still lying. Thanks to them, they are doing an excellent job in pushing Christianity into the ghetto of deliberate ignorance and anti-knowledge. They are responsible in part for the negative image Christianity has, and I know of several people, at least one in person, who left Christianity because of creationism.

If Satan is deceiving anybody, he is doing an excellent job with creationism.

As far as I am concerned, no one can claim to be whiter than white in this conflict. To engage in scientific debate without reference to the Scriptures gets us nowhere. Until the _Sword of the Spirit_ - The _Word of God_ - is mobilised, and we are all brought to recognise the Bible for what it really is, the current debate will drag on interminably, pitting Christian against Christian, substituting hatred for love (surely, a delightful prospect for ' the prince of this world ')

What better way to undermine Christianity than to attack it from within using the Bible.

As I have attempted to explain, Christopher, MN has no future; it exists today only because of wishful thinking on the part of those who practise science (clearly, the Christian having little excuse for his/her carelessness!). The reality is that in the numero-geometrical phenomena that undergird the strategically-placed Genesis 1:1 we have a tangible demonstration of what the supernatural is capable of accomplishing. The first casualty must be MN.

Vernon
www.otherbiblecode.com
 

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: CMSharp01@aol.com
  To: vernon.jenkins@virgin.net
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:31 AM
  Subject: Re: Spellbound? (was Re: Cobb County)

  Hi Vernon, you wrote:

    Hi Christopher,

    We appear to be talking past one another. In my last email I invited you to offer a reasonable naturalistic explanation for the empirical evidences of intelligent design in the numero-geometrical structure of the Bible's opening Hebrew words - this significant fact forming the cornerstone of my thesis. Surely you must see that until such explanation is forthcoming the observed phenomena must be attributed to a supernatural hand - this, in itself, revealing the inadequacy of MN.

  As I don't know Hebrew and I am not a scholar on ancient Hebrew writings
  and traditions, I am not in a position to pass any judgment on the
  intelligent design in the numero-geometrical structure of the Bible's opening
  Hebrew words, as you put it. To the best of my fallible interpretations,
  Genesis was written within the cultural and scientific knowledge of the day,
  and as I have said before, it is the theology, not the science, which is
  important in Genesis. It totally puzzles me why you keep trying to use the
  Bible as a scientific explanation of observed phenomena. Also, as you say
  that MN is inadequate, then it behooves you to provide a superior model
  based on testable supernaturalism.

    You point out that "Genesis 1:1 is a theological statement that God created the universe." Of course. But that is only _half_ the story, and rather than my providing "...a testable and falsifiable model for methodological supernaturalism that can explain what we observe in the universe rather than methodological naturalism, and can make predictions that can be tested...", I suggest the onus is on you, as a scientist and truth-seeker, to grapple with the _entire_ implications of this first verse - remembering, as a Christian, the supernatural basis of our faith and the scriptural warnings to which I have previously drawn attention.

  As I have said before, science is about seeking scientific truth, and through
  science I try and get the picture of the scientific truth as to how the universe
  came into existence. But as a Christians I also like to get the Christian truth
  through my faith that God created the universe, so yes, I am striving to get the
  whole picture through these separate truths.

  As to the scriptural warnings which you have previously mentioned, I really
  don't understand what context they have here. If you are implying that Satan
  wants to deceive, that is certainly true at least as far as our faith in God is
  concerned, but to claim that Satan is somehow creating a fake universe,
  with, for example, starlight created in transit to fool astronomers that the
  universe is billions of years old when it is really only a few thousand, is total
  and complete nonsense. And, as I have shown in my previous message,
  the leaders of the young earth creationist movement like Henry and John
  Morris lie, and lying for God is still lying. Thanks to them, they are doing
  an excellent job in pushing Christianity into the ghetto of deliberate
  ignorance and anti-knowledge. They are responsible in part for the negative
  image Christianity has, and I know of several people, at least one in
  person, who left Christianity because of creationism.

  If Satan is deceiving anybody, he is doing an excellent job with creationism.
  What better way to undermine Christianity than to attack it from within
  using the Bible.

    May I encourage you, therefore, to address this central issue with some urgency, for only when it is settled to our mutual satisfaction will we be able to proceed in a meaningful way to consider other matters of pressing interest.

    Vernon
    www.otherbiblecode.com

  Christopher Sharp
  http://csharp.com/creationism.html
Received on Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:49:10 -0000