Re: Spellbound? (was Re: Cobb County)

Hi Christopher,

We appear to be talking past one another. In my last email I invited you to offer a reasonable naturalistic explanation for the empirical evidences of intelligent design in the numero-geometrical structure of the Bible's opening Hebrew words - this significant fact forming the cornerstone of my thesis. Surely you must see that until such explanation is forthcoming the observed phenomena must be attributed to a supernatural hand - this, in itself, revealing the inadequacy of MN.

You point out that "Genesis 1:1 is a theological statement that God created the universe." Of course. But that is only _half_ the story, and rather than my providing "...a testable and falsifiable model for methodological supernaturalism that can explain what we observe in the universe rather than methodological naturalism, and can make predictions that can be tested...", I suggest the onus is on you, as a scientist and truth-seeker, to grapple with the _entire_ implications of this first verse - remembering, as a Christian, the supernatural basis of our faith and the scriptural warnings to which I have previously drawn attention.

May I encourage you, therefore, to address this central issue with some urgency, for only when it is settled to our mutual satisfaction will we be able to proceed in a meaningful way to consider other matters of pressing interest.

Vernon
www.otherbiblecode.com

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: CMSharp01@aol.com
  To: vernon.jenkins@virgin.net
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:21 AM
  Subject: Re: Spellbound? (was Re: Cobb County)

  Hi Vernon,

  You wrote:

    Christopher,

    I suggest that your criticisms of remarks recently made in my posting to Michael can only be properly considered when we have arrived at a mutually agreed position with respect to the validity of MN. You appear to have sidestepped this matter - which is unfortunate, because in my view it is central to the issues we are now debating.

    Clearly, the supernatural played a significant role in the life and times of our Lord, and beyond,

  That the supernatural played a significant role in the life of Christ is without argument. However, that is a red herring when it comes to modern science. Whatever miracles did or did not take place at the time of Christ are completely irrelevant in fields such as astrophysics, which is my field of research.

  and anyone foolish enough then to press the merits of MN as a working principle would have been laughed out of court.

  Only if the court is run by creationists!

  What has changed?
    Has Satan been tamed - so that he is no longer a threat? Hardly! - Eph.6:10-18 and 1Pet.5:8 surely give the lie to that naive idea.

  Well, as you keep going on about Satan, the father of lies, what about the likes of John and Henry Morris, who lie for God. Here is a page from my presentation on young earth creationism available at http://csharp.com/creationism.html . John Morris is so completely wrong that either he is lying or his knowledge of astronomy is so bad he has no business writing about it, in which case that is a sin of omission. Here is the text:
  _____________________________________________
  If we recognize the empirical nature of true science, that scientific models derive from observations of data in the present, then we recognize that the big-bang idea of the unobserved past is not even good science. What we observe are points of light each with certain unique luminosities, certain spectral bands, and other features like nebulous gas clouds. With the exception of an occasional explosive destruction of a star, these points of light are not seen to change or move with respect to one another. Their present state is not questioned. Their past may be theorized, but there will be more than one legitimate view of their unobserved history.

  Page 136 From Is the Big Bang Biblical?, by John Morris, ICR publications (2003). ISBN: 0-98051-391-0

  However:

  Soon after [Tycho's supernova in 1572], some more variable stars were discovered, including the first periodic one, Mira, the periodicity of which was only discovered considerably later in 1638. http://www.seds.org/~spider/spider/Vars/vars.html

  The discovery of proper motions was made by Edmund Halley in 1718. He noticed that the positions of three bright stars (Sirius, Arcturus and Aldebaran) were over half a degree different from those recorded by Hipparchus more than 1800 years earlier. http://www.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/one_lab/pm_intr.html
  _____________________________________________

  No, the supernatural hasn't conveniently gone away; this is simply an erroneous perception - sadly, shared by many Christians. (Perhaps our

    resident theologians would be prepared to confirm my understanding that this is really a symptom of _unbelief_; we no longer believe key biblical teachings because evolution has largely undermined our respect for the Bible's Authority).

  Biblical authority relates to meaning and purpose, not modern empirical science. True, the ancient Hebrews tried to explain phenomena in terms of the very limited science they had, but it makes no more sense to hold modern science hostage to the science of the ancient Hebrews any more than to hold it hostage to the science of the ancient Chinese or the Mayans. The whole point of Genesis is the theology behind it, not the science. Incidentally, evolution has not undermined the Bible's authority, but evolutionism perhaps has thanks to the likes of Richard Dawkins. Evolutionism is an atheistic philosophy, as opposed to evolution, which is science; however, not being an evolutionist, I can't speak for those who work in the field of biological evolution.

  However, the tables are now turned: the Lord has graciously provided firm evidence (in a form that intellectuals of all disciplines are able to

    appreciate and understand) that the supernatural is still around - an important factor in all our lives.

    Christopher, are you able to suggest a reasonable naturalistic explanation for the Genesis 1:1 numero-geometrical phenomena?

  Genesis 1:1 is a theological statement that God created the universe. We now know beyond all reasonable doubt that the agent by which the universe came into existence, at least in the form that we currently understand, was the Big Bang. The details of how the Big Bang took place through the agent of quantum gravity and/or string theory, is currently a hot research topic. I know a couple of cosmologists from the Vatican Observatory who are working on this. They are ordained priests with a strong commitment to Christ and scientists with a strong commitment to finding scientific truth.

  If not, then can we agree that MN can no longer be considered a valid assumption for those who practise science? Clearly, methodological

    _supernaturalism_ (MS) then becomes the proper alternative. [By the way, you may remember that A.R.Wallace - co-author of the Theory of Evolution, and Darwin's _goad_ - was of this mind (though not himself a Christian).]

  Well, if you can provide a testable and falsifiable model for methodological supernaturalism that can explain what we observe in the universe rather than methodological naturalism, and can make predictions that can be tested, I am fair game. Remember, you can't just say God did it, that is a cop-out, you need to provide evidence of a supernatural mechanism that we can study.

    I'm sure you will agree that until this particular matter is satisfactorily resolved we can't proceed to discuss the specific content of your posting in a meaningful way.

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Vernon
    www.otherbiblecode.com

  I look forward to hearing from you.

  Christopher
  http://csharp.com
Received on Fri Feb 4 18:17:15 2005