Re: Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale

Don,

You have it just backwards. Dawkins, Eldredge, and I don't find these
evidences convincing because we already believe in evolution--what on
earth does that mean anyway from a scientific perspective? These are
the very evidences that convince us that evolution is the best
explanation of the currently known data (that it is "true"; what
Gould and others have called the "fact" of evolution). Were it not
for these evidences there would be no evolutionary theory. And, yes,
special creation was the leading "theory" before these evidences came
to the fore. These are the very things together with the fossil
record and the antiquity of the earth that "forced"
scientifically-minded people, like Darwin, to come up with something
other than special creationism.

TG

>Dawkins wrote to Terry Gray's approval:
>
>"...If every fossil were magicked away, the comparative study of modern
>organisms, of how their patterns of resemblances, especially of their
>genetic sequences, are distributed among species, and of how species
>are distributed among continents and islands, would still
>demonstrate...that our history is evolutionary,
>and that all living creatures are cousins...."
>
>I agree that these evidences provide good corroboration for one who
>already believes evolution. But what are the alternatives if one
>doesn't? Special creation is certainly a leading alternative, and
>one who believes in special creation can easily dismiss several or
>all of these evidences: Genes and other molecules are similar in
>similar organisms because God happened to have closely similar
>thoughts as he made the closely related organisms. And, OK, the 13
>species of Galapagos finches may have descended from a common
>ancestor, but they're all still finches; we can live with that. As
>for the rest, prove God didn't create it all the way it is.
>(We probably have to accept that Noah's flood was local.)
>
>If a person honors the data, there is no way to dismiss variation in
>fossils with time. The special creationist can still argue that
>God created the corresponding organisms at different times, but that
>view has severe theological liabilities, needs lots of hand waving.
>In any case, a creationist who is knowledgeable and honest must take
>the fossil data into consideration, while the other evidences for
>evolution he can largely dismiss while still acknowledging that the
>data are valid.
>
>Magick away the fossils, Richard, and there's a good chance I won't
>believe evolution myself. That would be sad.
>
>Don
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:grayt@lamar.colostate.edu>Terry M. Gray
>To: <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>asa@calvin.edu
>Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 8:37 PM
>Subject: Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale
>
>Happy New Year everyone!
>
>Not long ago there was a thread about empirical evidence for or
>testable predictions coming out of evolutionary theory. That which
>convinced Darwin, primarily, and the "classical" argument for
>evolution is the nested hierarchy of characteristics (well-recognized
>in the pre-Darwinian world by Linnaeus' taxonomic system) together
>with the historical progression of life forms in the fossil record.
>Molecular data comes much later, and in my mind, provides a striking
>confirmation. (See my discussion in Chapter 12 of *Perspectives on an
>Evolving Creation*.)
>
>What's prompted me to post this is that I'm just starting in on
>Dawkins' new book and early on found this passage which I by and
>large agree with. I'm not particularly fond of his condescending
>"beyond all sane doubt" or his seemingly obligatory jab at
>creationists, but if one were to remove those rhetorical
>distractions, I find myself in full agreement.
>
>Here is the passage:
>
>**In spite of the fascination of fossils, it is surprising how much
>we would still know about our evolutionary past without them. If
>every fossil were magicked away, the comparative study of modern
>organisms, of how their patterns of resemblances, especially of their
>genetic sequences, are distributed among species, and of how species
>are distributed among continents and islands, would still
>demonstrate, beyond all sane doubt, that our history is evolutionary,
>and that all living creatures are cousins. Fossils are a bonus. A
>welcome bonus, to be sure, but not an essential one. It is worth
>remembering this when creationists go on (as they tediously do) about
>'gaps' in the fossil record. The fossil record could be one big gap,
>and the evidence for evolution would still be overwhelmingly strong.
>At the same time, if we had only fossils and no other evidence, the
>fact of evolution would again be overwhelmingly supported. As things
>stand, we are blessed with both.**
>
> (p. 13, Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor's Tale)
>
>This is similar to Niles Eldredge's discussion in his book,
>*Reinventing Darwin* where he underscored the primary evidence for
>evolution being in Natural History.
>
>Obviously, many, even on this list, disagree with us, but I continue
>to wonder whether the disagreement is due to the fact that
>evolutionary views have been used to support an atheistic agenda (or
>stand contra to a YEC interpretation of Genesis 1).
>I read Dawkins (and Eldredge) and don't think they are merely making
>specious claims. The evidence seems overwhelming to me (a Christian
>theist who has no zeal for pushing God out the creation business). I
>have to conclude that if evolution didn't occur, then God did His
>creative work in such a way as to make us think that it did occur.
>Maybe we could find some common ground with YECs with a notion of
>"apparent common ancestry".
>
>If anyone wants to join me in reading Dawkins, we can dialogue on
>passages as we progress in the book.
>
>TG
>--
>_________________
>Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
>Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
>Fort Collins, Colorado 80523
><mailto:grayt@lamar.colostate.edu>grayt@lamar.colostate.edu
><http://www.chm.colostate.edu/~grayt/>http://www.chm.colostate.edu/~grayt/
>phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801

-- 
_________________
Terry M. Gray, Ph.D., Computer Support Scientist
Chemistry Department, Colorado State University
Fort Collins, Colorado  80523
grayt@lamar.colostate.edu  http://www.chm.colostate.edu/~grayt/
phone: 970-491-7003 fax: 970-491-1801