Re: FW: I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG

Hi Glenn,

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:56:12 -0600 "Glenn Morton"
<glennmorton@entouch.net> writes:

> Bill, Just curious as to your view of my take no prisoners approach.
> Is Walter right? I thought we have a fairly good relationship but
> according to Walter, I am too strident to be able to talk with YECs.
would you
> comment to the board?

OK, my friend, but you asked for it. :-) First let me say that I have
the utmost respect for Glenn. He has mastered the art of countering an
argument without attacking the person. As one sympathetic to YEC views,
I have experienced strident, and strident is not a word I would use to
describe Glenn.

Having said that, I will also say that the "polka-dot sky" or "last
Tuesdayism" metaphors sometimes used by Glenn or others, in my own
experience on the receiving end, tend to shut lines of communication
down. I know I have exasperated Glenn and others at times with my
questions and statements, but at least in my mind, I have always sought
to get to the truth, even if it means getting put down or being forced to
crawfish.

Glenn knows the mindset of the YEC camp much better than I do, and I have
been very disappointed at times to learn about some of the things he has
experienced from the hand of YEC leaders. The Henry Morris anecdote re
the math error in a YEC paper, assuming it happened as Glenn described,
struck me as both comical and sad. I can't really say that I blame Glenn
for his response; I would have probably ended with the same level of
frustration if it had been me in Glenn's place.

In general, I would say that we should all approach these discussions
with a spirit of humility. We don't have all of the information, and we
may not be making the best interpretation of the information we do have.

In the discussion of Kevin Sharman's photos of Canadian Coal, I pointed
out a couple of things that seem to me at least to have some merit (roots
branching upward, and roots with a common plane of termination), which I
assume Kevin and Glenn had not noticed. I also note that these
observations didn't show up on Glenn's website, although some other
comments I made that I admit have less merit (e.g. roots buried in sand
while standing on their ends) did get a mention. I suppose Glenn is free
to list what he chooses, especially since he didn't mention me by name,
and this is certainly the way a lawyer would build his case.

As a P.G. in Alabama, I am prohibited by law from presenting less than
the full picture, or attempting to sway the opinion of interested parties
with a biased presentation. In my zeal I may have done exactly that, and
we might reasonably say that we can't present anything effectively if we
have to present everything. However, Walter may be picking up on this
tendency we all have towards bias and describing that tendency in Glenn
as "strident". In an ideal world I think we would all be willing to lay
all of the data out on the table.

In conclusion, I think it is a bit presumptuous to tell someone they are
"WRONG". The Christians on this list I assume would all say God can
perform miracles any time He wants, and none of us can say with certainty
that God didn't perform a miracle in any particular case. We know that
water doesn't always seek its own level (Exodus 14:22, 29), solid iron
doesn't always sink in water (2 Kings 6: 5-6), and extreme heat doesn't
always burn flesh (Daniel 3:19-27). Things like math errors should be
pointed out, but with prayer that the Holy Spirit will mediate to open
the eyes of the other person. Geocentrists might be engaged to offer
data to support their view, but that conversation is likely to be futile.
 Microwaves from the voice of God boiling the water beneath the earth's
surface is IMO over the edge and should be ignored. I might not call
such an idea WRONG, just unsupported by rational ideas. At any rate, to
engage such ideas comes close to "casting your pearls before swine."
(Matthew 7:6) There are more important things to do.

In our responses to others we would all do well to keep the words of
James over our screen: "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let
him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. But
if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be
arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which
comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where
jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil
thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,
reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.
 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who
make peace." (James 3:13-18)

May the peace of God flow through each of us,

Bill

                                ************************

Re: I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG
>
>
> O.K., Terry: I am over the limit. Can this one if you like.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think Glenn that we are talking past each other --as they often
> say.
>
> We must really have very different experiences with respect to YECs.
> The ones that I know are often shocked when they first come to know
that I
> happen to believe in evolution and an old universe. (that includes some
close
> family members) It takes very little (I repeat "very little") time to
> establish a fruitful -- one on one -- discussion with a Christian
brother or
> sister. In no time at all, we have a common ground of discussion
>
> To you and others on ASA, science is absolute and anyone who
> disagrees must be corrected. I find fault with that notion!!!
>
> Why in heaven's name should a non technical person EVER accept your
> word for this and not suspect that he must immediately reject
everything that
> he learned from the Bible.
>
> I empathize with them, Glenn -- and I really think that you and
> others of your persuasion are on the wrong track (I avoid use of the
word "WRONG"")
> with respect to acceptance of your Christian brothers and sisters.
>
> Glenn Morton wrote:
> >
> > I got involved in this not because of Jack's letter but because of
> > your implication that we should act as if wrong ideas have merit in
> > order to convince people otherwise.
>
> > I got involved because you seem to indicate that
> > we shouldn't tell people their ideas are wrong. I disagree with that
> > approach. One should be truthful in everything. I asked you where
you
> > would draw the line in taking a stand and calling something wrong.
You
> > didn't answer, other than to call them nutcakes, which seems to be an
> > IARAYAW statement as well.
>
> Let me clarify. I think that Morris, Gish, and the flat earthers
> deserve to called fruitcakes and not compared to the YEC in the pew
that I
> personally have come to know. Your following list is an example of the
voodoo
> science taught by the fruitcakes, It Is NOT what the men in the pews
confess to --
> nor how they can be influenced
>
>
> > I don't understand why you wouldn't call
> > Christian geocentricity wrong rather than calling the advocates
nutcakes.
> > Why is geocentricity so much more nutcakish than belief that all the
rates
> > of radioactive decay and the speed of light were faster in the past,
so fast
> > as to make the earth only 6000 years old? The consequences of such a
belief
> > are simply not observed in nature. Why is it less nutcakish to
believe that
> > all the world's 10 million species were either on an ark or were able
to
> > evolve in a few thousand years after the flood, while they at the
same time
> > decry evolution? Why is it less nutcakish to believe that God encoded
images
> > of exploding stars in the light as it travels to earth?
> >
> > I simply see no standard in what you are actually doing
>
> My standard is that MOST (I repeat "MOST") people think that science
> is a nothing. They do not "bow down" to it as those on this list do. To

> them the Bible is far more important than anything that you, ASA and
all the
> world's scientists added up together can contribute to a relationship
with
> God.
>
> Instead they trust their Bible and their own understanding of it --
> not some scientific junk from Morris et all.
>
> Given a choice, I will always side with the notion that Christian
> values take precedence over scientific acumen.
>
> So maybe I should be drummed out of ASA.
>
> Walt

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Received on Mon Dec 29 23:56:22 2003