From: Vernon Jenkins (vernon.jenkins@virgin.net)
Date: Fri Oct 31 2003 - 17:29:19 EST
Jan,
Thank you for these observations. But are you suggesting that we should close our eyes, ears and minds to new truths that are emerging from the biblical text in the form of numerical and geometrical patterns? Why should the genuine seeker after truth erect barriers to his own understanding? You must agree, it makes little sense! All empirical evidence that emanates from the revealed truth of God's Word needs either to be accomodated by, and incorporated into, one's worldview (which must be enhanced thereby!) or else _proved to be irrelevant_, and rejected.
Further, you appear to challenge the point recently put to Gordon, viz that it is not possible for a Christian to believe _both_ the account of God's covenant with Noah and the non-universality of the Flood that preceded it. I see this as a matter of simple logic - having nothing to do with my interpretation of Genesis. I doubt whether theistic evolutionists in general are aware of this tension and, if so, have seriously considered its implications.
I welcome your further comments.
Vernon
----- Original Message -----
From: Jan de Koning
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Academics who actively support Young Earth Creationism
At 12:08 PM 29/10/2003 +0000, Vernon Jenkins wrote:
Walter,
I appear to have caused you some anguish, and I am sorry about that. But the point I was attempting to make is well exemplified I believe in my recent reply to Gordon, viz to be an evolutionist, the Christian has to jettison his acceptance of the Noahic covenant with its 'global flood' implications. One wonders then where this leaves the Apostle Paul's statement that the 'word of God' is the 'sword of the Spirit' (Eph.6:17)?
Vernon
Vernon,
To address your thoughts to <asa@calvin.edu> is sufficient. You don't have to address it to each one who does not agree with you separately.
I have not seen an answer to my posting in which I said, that I think that you are not very knowledgeable about theological books exegeting the first twelve chapters of Genesis. If you were you would not write the way you do.
The Word of God is indeed the sword of the Spirit, a saying the majority, if not all writers on this forum agree. However, I also believe, that the majority of the writers does not agree with your exegesis of Genesis. Neither do the majority of God-fearing Christians. The points you raise are numerous, and need to be discussed in a book. If your faith depends on believing the way you do, go ahead. Jesus died for sinners, for all sinners who accept Him as their Saviour. However, your understanding of the Bible is unacceptable to many people. It does not mean that they do not want to live by the Word of God, it only means that they think that your way of reading does not do justice to the richness of the Bible. Now some remarks on
Literality:
A poem in the Bible is a song glorifying God, but is not necessarily describing facts in the order they happened, nor in an exactly literal meaning: "The heavens declare the glory of God.". So read Gen.1 as a poem.
Translation difficulties cause words to be translated differently in different places. Example: the word in Gen.1translated as "living being" (verse 20) is translated in Gen. 2 as "soul", because in Gen.1 it was an animal, in Gen.2 man. It does mean, though, that even here are difficulties, which we have not even started discussing.
Modern English thinking (even non-scientific thinking) in the Bible is usually understood "literally", even when we, for example,
in our daily use may say "thousands" when we mean "many". Hebrew talking is not any different. Their daily talking, as recorded in the Bible, tells us the Truth, but not necessarily "truth" (facts) in our sense of the words.
Difficulties experienced by scientists who are studying God's Word in creation cannot be swept under the rug as easily as you do. I have no objection to your believing as you do, provided that you realize, that your reading is a reading not acceptable to most, if not all readers on this forum. Reason: it is too easy. You just assume that God is lying to us in His Creation. Obviously you do not read the Bible as it was originally written. Read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek and you realize that your reading is too simplistic.
Also, language does develop. Englishof the 16th century is not American English. Consequently we have had several more modern translations. Books written in old English are hard to understand, not only because the change in language, but also because the change in living conditions, in surroundings etc. Now add to that translations of a book given first to shepherds in completely different living conditions, and you will realize that learning to read the BIble properly is a life-long exercise for all of us.
Science learns more and more about creation, but there is so much to learn, that none of us can be an expert in more than one or two areas. But, now I stop, and I hope that your realize that the great majority of the readers on this forum have accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour and as the Saviour and King of the World, now, and of the world to come, when we may know the answers to our difficulties.
Jan de Koning
In the Bible God spoke to people, not just to scientists, though scientists are included. That means talking "scientifically" would not be understood by most people, especially not to people living, say, three thousand years ago. They would not even have words for the conceptions now known by scientists.
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