From: RFaussette@aol.com
Date: Fri Oct 24 2003 - 13:02:02 EDT
In a message dated 10/24/03 2:48:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iain.strachan.asa@ntlworld.com writes:
> I'll second that. The implications that Ashkenazi Jews (apparently over
> 90% of todays Jews are Ashkenazim) are not Semites is potentially racially
> explosive. I looked into this using a Google search. The theory seems to have
> been popularised in Arthur Koestler's book "The thirteenth Tribe", namely
> that Askenazim are descended from the Khazars: a Turkish race who adopted
> Judaism in the 8th Century AD. The Khazars, then, are supposedly descended from
> Ashkenaz who was descended from Japeth. The Khazar theory is championed on a
> number of extremely dubious, and frankly racially offensive web-sites. The
> first place I found it described was from an organization called "Jews for
> Allah"; espousing the idea that there was absolutely no point in being a Jew
> any more because the vast majority are not Semites (ie descended from Shem) &
> that therefore the One True Religion has to be Islam (descended from
> Shem-...-Abraham-Ishmael). The other place where this theory is given prominence is
> at http://biblebelievers.org/ , a heretical cult of Christianity who believe
> that a certain William M. Bramham, the founder of the "Latter Rain"
> movement, was a prophet of God. Still another site made the ludicrous interpretation
> of Noah's prophecy of Gen 9:27 ("may Japeth live in the tents of Shem")
> referred to modern day Israel, because modern-day Jews are not descended from
> the original Israelites & therefore those living in the "homeland" of Israel
>
rich remarks:
"In the eighth century, the ruling class of the Khazar kingdom in the steppes
of southern russia converted to Judaism. Some legends trace the origins of
Polish Jewry to this Turkic people, but there is no historical evidence to
corroborate such theories." from a Historical Atlas of the Jewish People, Barnavi,
ed., Kuperard, London
--- trade in the eigth century between east and west was controlled by Jewish
merchants. The main trade route between the east and the west ran through
the Khazarian empire.
"Dr. Shaye Cohen, professor of Jewish literature and philosophy at Harvard,
said the implication of the findings and the idea of Jewish communities' having
been founded by traders, was "by no means implausible." " from below article
Here are excerpts from a recent article:
In DNA, New Clues to Jewish Roots
NYT May 14, 2002
By NICHOLAS WADE
A new thread is being woven into the complex tapestry of
Jewish history, a thread fashioned from a double twist of
DNA.
The DNA data suggest a particular version of Jewish history
and origins that historians have not yet had time to
appraise but that seem to be reconcilable in principle with
the historical record, according to experts in Jewish
studies.
The emerging genetic picture is based largely on two
studies, one published two years ago and the other this
month, that together show that the men and women who
founded the Jewish communities had surprisingly different
genetic histories.
The earlier study, led by Dr. Michael Hammer of University
of Arizona, showed from an analysis of the male, or Y
chromosome, that Jewish men from seven communities were
related to one another and to present-day Palestinian and
Syrian populations, but not to the men of their host
communities.
The finding suggested that Jewish men who founded the
communities traced their lineage back to the ancestral
Mideastern population of 4,000 years ago from which Arabs,
Jews and other people are descended. It pointed to the
genetic unity of widespread Jewish populations and took
issue with ideas that most Jewish communities were
relatively recent converts like the Khazars, a medieval
Turkish tribe that embraced Judaism.
A new study now shows that the women in nine Jewish
communities from Georgia, the former Soviet republic, to
Morocco have vastly different genetic histories from the
men. In each community, the women carry very few genetic
signatures on their mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element
inherited only through the female line. This indicates that
the community had just a small number of founding mothers
and that after the founding event there was little, if any,
interchange with the host population. The women's
identities, however, are a mystery, because, unlike the
case with the men, their genetic signatures are not related
to one another or to those of present-day Middle Eastern
populations.
The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and
Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other
colleagues, appears in The American Journal of Human
Genetics this month. Dr. Goldstein said it was up to
historians to interpret the genetic evidence. His own
speculation, he said, is that most Jewish communities were
formed by unions between Jewish men and local women, though
he notes that the women's origins cannot be genetically
determined.
"The men came from the Near East, perhaps as traders," he
said. "They established local populations, probably with
local women. But once the community was founded, the
barriers had to go up, because otherwise mitochondrial
diversity would be increased."
In ancient Israel, the Jewish priesthood was handed from
father to son. But at some time from 200 B.C. to A.D. 500,
Jewish status came to be defined by maternal descent. Even
though the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were
not born Jewish, their descendants were.
++++++++++
richard's note: this is incorrect - Jewish status never came to be defined
by maternal descent - Jewishness came to be defined by maternal descent -
Jewish status within the Jewish community is still defined by paternal descent:
"The children follow the status of the father in terms of 'tribe' - kohen,
levi or Israelite - unlike the determination of Jew or non-Jew, which follows
the mother."
Lamm, the Jewish way in Love and Marriage, Harperrow, p.86
++++++++++
"It's precisely that custom that allows us to see these
founding events," Dr. Goldstein said.
Like the other Jewish communities in the study, the
Ashkenazic community of Northern and Central Europe, from
which most American Jews are descended, shows less
diversity than expected in its mitochondrial DNA, perhaps
reflecting the maternal definition of Jewishness. But
unlike the other Jewish populations, it does not show signs
of having had very few female founders. It is possible, Dr.
Goldstein said, that the Ashkenazic community is a mosaic
of separate populations formed the same way as the others.
Dr. Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist at New York
University, said the 26 specific genetic diseases found
among Ashkenazim, usually attributed to "founder effects,"
could be explained by the idea of a mosaic of small
populations. A founder effect amplifies any mutation
present in a small population that later expands.
"He has really opened up the door for some very interesting
work," Dr. Ostrer said.
The idea that most or all Jewish communities were founded
by Jewish men and local women is somewhat at variance with
the usual founding traditions. Most Jewish communities hold
that they were formed by families who fled persecution or
were invited to settle by local kings.
For instance, Iraqi Jews are said to be descended from
those exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the First
Temple in 586 B.C. Members of the Bene Israel community of
Bombay say they are the children of Jews who fled the
persecutions of Antiochus Epiphanus, who repressed the
Maccabean revolt, around 150 B.C.
Most of those founding narratives do not have strong
historical support. Dr. Lawrence H. Schiffman, professor of
Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, said the
new genetic data could well explain how certain far-flung
Jewish communities were formed. But he doubted that it
would account for the origin of larger Jewish communities
that seemed more likely to have been formed by families who
were fleeing persecution or making invited settlements.
Dr. Shaye Cohen, professor of Jewish literature and
philosophy at Harvard, said the implication of the findings
and the idea of Jewish communities' having been founded by
traders, was "by no means implausible."
"The authors are correct in saying the historical origins
of most Jewish communities are unknown," Dr. Cohen said.
"Not only the little ones like in India, but even the
mainstream Ashkenazic culture from which most American Jews
descend."
In a recent book, "The Beginnings of Jewishness," Dr. Cohen
argued that far-flung Jewish communities had adopted the
rabbinic teaching of the matrilineal descent of Jewishness
soon after the Islamic conquests in the seventh, eight and
ninth centuries A.D.
One part of the Goldstein team's analysis, that matrilineal
descent of Jewishness was practiced at or soon after the
founding of each community, could fit in with this
conclusion, Dr. Cohen said, if the communities were founded
around this time.
The data being generated by Dr. Hammer, Dr. Goldstein and
other population geneticists touches on the delicate issue
of whether Jews can be considered a race. Dr. Cohen noted
that the Nazis and their anti-Semitic predecessors had
argued that Jews were a race and therefore irreconcilable
with the host community and that Jews had in response
argued they were not, because they admitted people by
conversion.
If the founding mothers of most Jewish communities were
local, that could explain why Jews in each country tend to
resemble their host community physically while the origins
of their Jewish founding fathers may explain the aspects
the communities have in common, Dr. Cohen said.
Despite the definition of Jewishness as being born to a
Jewish mother, and the likelihood of some continuity
between ancient and modern populations, it has not until
recently been clear that genetics had anything much to
contribute to questions of Jewish identity.
Some scholars suspected that Jewish communities had through
intermarriage or conversion become little different from
their host populations. Many say they believe that even if
Jews are a group definable in ethnic, as opposed to
cultural or religious terms, it is either impossible or
unwise to define an ethnic group genetically.
Dr. Schiffman said that as president of the Association for
Jewish Studies he would consider convening a discussion
between the geneticists and the historians on interpreting
the new data. He noted that the study of racial differences
had led to disaster in the past but that the new analysis
of genetic differences was "a form of racial science for
the good, rather than the bad."
"Racial science," Dr. Schiffman said, "has brought so many
terrible things. But it's a norm now in genetics to study
the racial genetics of groups. So I think it's an amazing
difference."
iain wrote:
Still another site referred to modern day Jews as "Self-styled Jews", and
another "revealed" that modern-day Judaism was nothing more than "a plot against
> Christianity". Needless to say I find all of this to be extremely
> distasteful and offensive.
>
rich responded:
If you find someone pulling down your altars and all you do is find it
"extremely distasteful and offensive," you can't stop them, can you?
“I said, I will never break my covenant with you, and you in turn must make
no covenant with the inhabitants of the country; you must pull down their
altars. But you did not obey me and look what you have done! So I said, I will not
drive them out before you; they will decoy you, and their gods will shut you
fast in the trap.” Judges 2:1-4
Be careful not to make a covenant with the natives of the land against which
youare going, or they will prove a snare in your midst.
No: you shall demolish their altars, smash their sacred pillars and cut down
their sacred poles.” Exodus 34:14
When did the Jews give up the Old Covenant? When did they stop pulling altars
down? And this is not a rhetorical question. Do they live according to the
tenets of the OC or not? If they do, whose altars are they pulling down? If
they're not, when did they abandon the Old Covenant? Can you give me a reference
that says the Jews abandoned the Old Covenant?
Iain:
> I also found varous claims that the Khazar theory had been rebutted,
> notably from a Christian mission to the Jews; though I am not too sure the argument
> presented there was particularly watertight. [I think that the name "Cohen"
> indicated Aaronic ancestry, because the word means "high priest". However,
> this could as much be a coincidence of names as Ashkenaz/Ashkenazim].
> In summary, it seems to me that it's going to be difficult to affirm either
> side of the debate by looking at web-sites, all of which are trying to
> persuade you of their own viewpoint for their own purposes. If anyone knows of a
> good objective and scholarly rebuttal of the Khazar theory, I'd be interested.
>
> But it seems to me that the idea that over 90% of Jews are not Semites is
> "anti-Semitism" gone mad & should therefore be abhorred.
>
> Iain.
>
>
rich remarks:
But from the data I've provided, the suggestion that some Ashkenazi Jews may
be descended from Khazarians is not implausible at all, since the genetic
data suggest a closed male community often mating with female locals (my
reference was a Jewish Atlas and a Times article) and further that prosperous Jewish
merchants as early as the eighth century controlled the trade through the
Khazarian empire.
As for the cohen:
“The kohen, or priest, was historically the chief religious functionary of
the Jewish people. It was understood that Judaism could not survive without the
kohen and the detailed laws of tradition. Since the laws required meticulous
concern for tradition, the stability of an hereditary priesthood was
indispensable. The purity of the kohen’s heredity has guaranteed the purity of his
heritage.” --"His ancestry spans all of Jewish history from the Exodus to this
very day."
Lamm, The Jewish way in Love and marriage, p 84
I agree with your percentage, but not with your emotional attachment to an
issue that should be objectively assessed, particularly since secular Jewish
ownership of the media and Jacobian usurping of the courts is actually pulling
our altars down.
why is it important to rebut the khazar theory? you don't say you want to
test the theory - you say you want to rebut it - why?
rich faussette
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