From: Iain Strachan (iain.strachan.asa@ntlworld.com)
Date: Thu Oct 16 2003 - 15:14:11 EDT
Dick wrote:
Today on CNN they reported that new genetic evidence of longevity was found among Ashkenazi Jews. A study was done on this group of people due to their known longevity, and a genetic connection was found. This is the report.
Remember that in the descendents from Adam, Noah and Shem, their longevity decreases from 950 (Noah) to 600 (Shem) and so on through the line leading to Abraham who lived to 175. Ashkenaz was in the line of Japheth and Gomer making him Noah's great grandson. Longevity would be presumed for all of Noah's descendants if the Bible is correct in stating ages, and now a genetic basis for longevity has been confirmed in this population through science that does not exist in the general population.
Remember, in my scheme of things Adam is the founder of the Adamites, Semites (Accadians), Israelites and Jews, though not the ultimate patriarch of the entire human race. Now a genetic link has been found that is unique to this particular race of people.
Thank you Lord, I needed that.
Surely this is clutching at straws! Sure it's interesting that the research shows that genetic variations can account for up to 50% greater longevity in modern humans. But to pretend that you can extrapolate that to 1000% greater longevity in ancient humans is absurd. It's as if I told you that if I changed my diet and lifestyle, that I could run 50% faster than I do now. No one would have a problem with that. But if I achieved that, and then said I was searching for the magic combination of foods to make me run 10 times as fast, no one would take me seriously. Maybe Noah et al could all run at > 120 mph?
I submit that if this post had been made by a YEC member of this list, that it would have been torn to shreds and laughed out of court. However, since this post has been made by Dick, who has prevously posted a number of witheringly scornful attacks on YEC science, I suppose he will get away with it.
But it points to the obvious fact that these figures of the patriarchal ages are a serious problem for people who accept evolution and want still to take the bible as all true. It's plausible to treat the creation account, Adam and Eve and so forth as allegory rather than literal history because the accounts contain spiritual truths that tell us about the condition of humankind. But it's hard to see what relevant spiritual truth can be gained from the knowledge that Lamech was 182 years old when he became the father of Noah, and lived thereafter for 595 years, dying at the age of 777.
Faced with such hard "facts", which contradict everything we observe scientifically today, and no obvious redeeming spiritual truth, you either have to concede that the figures don't describe the ages that real people lived to, or you have to resort to the kind of absurd extrapolation that most people on this list are quick to condemn "Creation Scientists" for. Indeed, Creation scientists have used similar arguments based on long lived modern humans to justify the idea that people could have lived for several hundred years in the past.
I consider that such "scientific" extrapolations are the wildest speculation. It would surely be more profitable to study the numbers per se and see if they might have some symbolic significance. It is strange, is it not, that of the people quoted as dying in that genealogy, that Lamech is an outlier by a considerable margin (over 100 years), and that his figure is 777; which might well be a candidate for a symbolic number (rather like 666). [ I have excluded Enoch at 365 as he does not die, according to the account, but is taken up by God]. Furthermore, the subdivision of 182 + 595 relates to triangular numbers; 595 is the 34th Triangular number, and 182 = 2x 91, where 91 is the 13th Triangular number. Note that 13 divides 34 in close to the Golden ratio, as they are both Fibonacci numbers. The Fibonacci number in between these two is 21, which divides into the total 777 (21x37).
So ... just to be devil's advocate; I speculate that this figure of 777 is not a real age, but was determined mathematically using maths that was well-known to ancient mathematicians, and considered sacred by them. (Golden ratios were known about since the earliest times, and certainly revered by the ancient Egyptians). Similar numerical decompositions can be obtained with Methuselah's 969. [GIF file available off-list by private request].
Of course; what I've just said is also pure speculation, but I don't think as extreme as the idea that a factor 10 difference in longevity can be put down to genes; with only a factor 1.5 experimentally measured. The most extreme longevity we have in the animal kingdom is the tortoise (I believe), who lives to around 200 years; a long way off 777 let alone 969.
A further point. I don't quite see the relevance of saying that Ashkenaz was a Japethite. Surely all Jews (and Arabs for that matter) are supposed to be descended from Abraham & hence are in the line from Shem according to the genealogy.
Iain.
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