From: George Murphy (gmurphy@raex.com)
Date: Wed Oct 08 2003 - 06:25:45 EDT
allenroy wrote:
>
> George Murphy wrote:
>
> > I will make one last try, since you don't seem to have paid close attention to
> > what has been said. The original claim was that, BEFORE the sin described in Genesis 3,
> > Adam & Eve walked & talked intimately with God in the garden. It is whether they walked &
> > talked with God in the garden BEFORE they sinned. & Genesis does not say that they did.
>
> GE 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the
> eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to
> her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened,
> and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for
> themselves.
> GE 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the
> garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
> 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
> GE 3:10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I
> hid." NIV
>
> So, here we have Adam and Eve sinning. They then "heard the sound of the LORD God...
> walking in the garden" and hide from Him.
>
> We have to ask:
> 1. How would they be able to recognize the "sound of God walking in the garden," unless
> they had already heard that very sound before and knew who it was walking in the garden?
>
> Why else would they hide if they had not recognized the sound?
>
> The only way that they could know who was walking in the garden was if they had heard the
> sound before -- i.e. before they sinned.
>
> 2. "God called to the man, "Where are you?""
>
> Adam did not ask 'who are you?" He already knew who it was because he recognized the sound
> -- Adam said, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid". Adam, probably, also
> recognized God's voice.
>
> Again, the only way they could know who was walking and talking was because they had heard
> the sound and voice before, i.e. before they sinned.
>
> God was not walking around with a big neon sign flashing "GOD....GOD....GOD" -- Bzzt -- Bzzt
> -- Bzzt. God was not "Thundering and Flashing" because they had sinned. He did not come in
> raging and shouting vindictives because of their sin. He came walking and asking to be with
> them. They knew Him because of the sound of His walking and His talking.
>
> All this implies that God had come walking and talking with them in the garden AT LEAST
> ONCE, before they sinned. And if at least once, then why not often? God is love. He
> created us so He could love us and so that we could love Him. Love requires relationship,
> interaction and intimacy. It is entirely within God's character to spend time with His
> loved ones as often as He can. Thus it is not without foundation that God came in the cool
> of the evenings on a regular basis to be with Adam and Eve. In that way, they would come to
> know and recognize the sounds of the God who walked and talked with them.
>
> Allen
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> George Murphy wrote:
>
> I will make one last try, since you don't seem to
> have paid close attention to what has been said. The
> original claim was that, BEFORE the sin described in Genesis
> 3, Adam & Eve walked & talked intimately with God in the
> garden. It is whether they walked & talked with God in the
> garden BEFORE they sinned. & Genesis does not say that they
> did.
>
> GE 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food
> and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she
> took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with
> her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and
> they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and
> made coverings for themselves.
> GE 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he
> was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from
> the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called
> to the man, "Where are you?"
> GE 3:10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid
> because I was naked; so I hid." NIV
>
> So, here we have Adam and Eve sinning. They then "heard the sound of
> the LORD God... walking in the garden" and hide from Him.
>
> We have to ask:
> 1. How would they be able to recognize the "sound of God walking in
> the garden," unless they had already heard that very sound before and
> knew who it was walking in the garden?
>
> Why else would they hide if they had not recognized the sound?
>
> The only way that they could know who was walking in the garden was if
> they had heard the sound before -- i.e. before they sinned.
>
> 2. "God called to the man, "Where are you?""
>
> Adam did not ask 'who are you?" He already knew who it was because he
> recognized the sound -- Adam said, "I heard you in the garden, and I
> was afraid". Adam, probably, also recognized God's voice.
>
> Again, the only way they could know who was walking and talking was
> because they had heard the sound and voice before, i.e. before they
> sinned.
>
> God was not walking around with a big neon sign flashing
> "GOD....GOD....GOD" -- Bzzt -- Bzzt -- Bzzt. God was not "Thundering
> and Flashing" because they had sinned. He did not come in raging and
> shouting vindictives because of their sin. He came walking and asking
> to be with them. They knew Him because of the sound of His walking
> and His talking.
>
> All this implies that God had come walking and talking with them in
> the garden AT LEAST ONCE, before they sinned. And if at least once,
> then why not often? God is love. He created us so He could love us
> and so that we could love Him. Love requires relationship,
> interaction and intimacy. It is entirely within God's character to
> spend time with His loved ones as often as He can. Thus it is not
> without foundation that God came in the cool of the evenings on a
> regular basis to be with Adam and Eve. In that way, they would come
> to know and recognize the sounds of the God who walked and talked with
> them.
I said originally, "'walking in the garden in the cool of the day' refers to
_God_, not to the man & woman walking with God. In fact, Genesis does not ever speak of
the man &/or woman walking in the garden with God." This remains true, for all the
inferences anyone wishes to make.
Anybody who wishes may write his or her amplified Genesis. I don't wish to. &
since this whole thread is a deflection of the original topic - i.e., whether or not the
Incarnation was contingent upon sin - I won't respond to any further imaginative Eden
scenarios.
Shalom,
George
George L. Murphy
gmurphy@raex.com
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Wed Oct 08 2003 - 06:34:18 EDT