From: SHEILA WILSON (sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Tue Oct 07 2003 - 10:07:06 EDT
Sometimes my dog is! Unfortunately, God does not say that He sent His only begotten dog, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but will have everlasting life. The Bible does say that no man will enter the kingdom of God except through Jesus Christ because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Sheila
"Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
Is your dog a sinner too?
Moorad
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
Sent: Mon 10/6/2003 5:18 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad; gmorbey@wlu.ca; ASA
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RATE]
My dog is conscious and can reason and love
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Alexanian, Moorad
To: gmorbey@wlu.ca ; ASA
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: RATE]
Hi Graham,
I am not sure how one can separate the creation of the cosmos from the creation of man. The whole thing came into being together. Perhaps this is not quite consistent with evolutionary thought, but so be it. God became flesh in the man Jesus Christ not things/animals. There is a distinction between man and the rest of creation. Man was created in the image of God, which means that we are conscious beings that can reason and love.
Moorad
-----Original Message-----
From: Graham E. Morbey [mailto:gmorbey@wlu.ca]
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 1:34 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad; ASA
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RATE]
Hi Moorad,
Would the following biblical texts help soften your rigid categories? John1:1-4, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 1:9-10, Colossians 1:15-20, Hebrews 1:1-3. Do you think God doesn't love the things he created, takes delight in them, cares for them? What about John 3:16? Perhaps you define love to narrowly? If God is love, would it not follow that God creates what God loves? and therefore loves what is created? Sparrows and lilies of the field get God's attention! Besides, is there really any thing purely physical? Things always have a relationship, and certainly to God who created everything through Jesus Christ. And, hey, we can still love each other, even if we think differently about things!
Graham
Alexanian, Moorad wrote:
I suppose then there are those who believe in Kallistos Ware and those who believe in Scripture. It does not make sense to me to say that the Incarnation is independent of the fact that man is a fallen creature. Why then Christ? If love is so important to God, where is love in creation except in man? I do not see it in anything purely physical, which is what the cosmos is!
Moorad
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Graham E. Morbey
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 11:47 AM
To: ASA
Subject: [Fwd: Re: RATE]
-------- Original Message --------
Subject:
Re: RATE
Date:
Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:40:17 -0400
From:
Graham E. Morbey
Reply-To:
To:
Josh Bembenek
References:
Dear Josh,
Let me suggest another way of looking at the fall! Since our description of God includes, perfection, plenitude, fullness and not needing anything outside God's self, we can surmise that the creation was not necessary but an act of freedom in which God, in love, chooses to limit God's self. This means that creation is good because of the Creator, but limited because not necessary. In other words, whether we sinned or not, the Incarnation would have taken place. God doesn't coerce, humanity responds badly with its limited freedom and therefore the great hope of creation and humanity is in God so loved the cosmos.... Kallistos Ware in his work on the Creation says "God's motive in creation is his love. Rather than say that he created the universe out of nothing, we should say that he created it out of his own self, which is love. We should think, not of God the Manufacturer or God the Craftsman, but of God the Lover." Later, he states: "Even before the Incarnation God is di!
rectly involved in the sufferings of his creation....It has been truly said that there was a cross in the heart of God before there was one planted outside of Jerusalem." Bishop Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way. What I am getting at is tentative and perhaps not as clear as it should be. It does, however, suggest human salvation is in a sense secondary to the salvation of the cosmos. What we have in the Genesis account (chapters 1-11) is the oral and written development of the worldwide traditions of creation brought to a point where the one Creator God becomes distinquished from the accumulated attempts to worship aspects of the creation - Holy Spirit work to be sure. But it also does justice to a recognition of Babylonian, Mesopotamian and Egyptian influences on the text. And, not least, when understood, however imperfectly, strongly suggests that YEC is a modern form of creaturely idolatry.
Graham
Josh Bembenek wrote:
At the moment I am choosing not to participate in the argumentation
concerning specific cataclysmic interpretations of empirical data, but I
would be interested to hear your testimony concerning why holding to a YEC
position is so important to you. What is at stake here? If the professional
science community turns out to be correct on matters of chronology, what
would be the loss to the Christian faith as you understand it?
Howard, from what I've come to understand the primary importance is being able to claim that mankind is fallen and that has been inherited from Adam and Eve. In this view, The Fall requires some kind of mechanistic transfer into all of humankind from Adam, otherwise we had no fall. This is partially bolstered by the idea that God looked at His creation and called it "good." Would the creation of hominids that die, have disease, etc. and are inherently fallen creatures be "good?"
This is an interesting question.
Josh
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Sheila McGinty Wilson
sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net
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