Re: RATE

From: Donald Nield (d.nield@auckland.ac.nz)
Date: Thu Oct 02 2003 - 21:30:13 EDT

  • Next message: Howard J. Van Till: "Re: Naturalism, What does it Mean?"

    allenroy wrote:

    > "D. F. Siemens, Jr." wrote:
    >
    > > I did a quick search by Google on "Carbon 14." First, the ratio of
    > > radio-carbon in contemporary living things is about 10^-12. This is the
    > > 100% level, approximately, for there are technicalities to the standard.
    > > Measurement by the most advanced techniques gets down to a little more
    > > than 1%, for an age of 40,000 years. Theoretically, the newest techniques
    > > might get to 60K, but the practitioners say it doesn't work. In other
    > > words, 0.1% is a full order of magnitude better than the best labs get.
    > > Do you suppose it's artifactual?
    >
    > >From http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-364.htm (ICRs Impact #364)
    > "The AMS (Accelerator Mass Spectrometer) method improved the sensitivity of the
    > raw measurement of the 14C/12C ratio from approximately 1% of the modern value
    > to about 0.001%, extending the theoretical range of sensitivity from about
    > 40,000 years to about 90,000 years. The expectation was that this improvement in
    > precision would make it possible to use this technique to date dramatically
    > older fossil material.1"
    >
    > from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c14.html (Talk.Origins Archives and
    > FAQS)
    > "Dr. Gove and his colleagues are currently trying to improve AMS technology to
    > be able to identify certain fossil fuels that have extremely low 14C content.
    > Current AMS techniques have a 14C/C detection limit of about 10^-15
    > (corresponding to 60,000 yrs), and Dr. Gove's current research, this year, is
    > aimed at improving detectability to 10^-18 (110,000 yrs)."
    > "Their ultimate goal is to reliably measure 14C/C ratios down to the
    > unbelievably low levels of 10^-22 (180,000 yrs). "
    > This Talk.origins paper talks about possible in-situ occurrence of 14C due to
    > several factors and the site ends with:
    > "So, it looks like in-situ production of new 14C is the best-supported
    > hypothesis; but research is ongoing, and I look forward to seeing the results of
    > the Old Carbon Project and new research on the deep subterranean bacteria."
    >
    > Impact #364 say this about contamination.
    > "The big surprise, however, was that no fossil material [other than oil] could
    > be found anywhere that had as little as 0.001% of the modern value! Since most
    > of the scientists involved assumed the standard geological time scale..., the
    > obvious explanation for the 14C they were detecting in their samples was
    > contamination from some source of modern carbon with its high level of 14C.
    > Therefore they mounted a major campaign to discover and eliminate the sources of
    > such contamination. Although they identified and corrected a few relatively
    > minor sources of 14C contamination, there still remained a significant level of
    > 14C—typically about 100 times the ultimate sensitivity of the instrument—in
    > samples that should have been utterly "14C-dead," including many from the deeper
    > levels of the fossil-bearing part of the geological record."
    >
    > Allen

    OK, what does this tell us? From the ICR's own information we learn that the
    methodology works OK down to a ratio of 0.001% of the modern value, that is 10^(-5)
    of that value, so the method works OK for about 17 half-lifetimes of C14, that is
    about 10^5 years. That is no help to the YECs !

    Don

    -



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