From: Josh Bembenek (jbembe@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 10 2003 - 10:14:15 EDT
Bob-
If genes are proven to predispose people toward alcoholism and drug
addiction, should we then forget about the biblical warnings that tell us to
avoid such behaviour? Predisposition does not limit/cancel our free will
nor justify decisions pursuaded by it.
Josh
>From: RDehaan237@aol.com
>To: gmurphy@raex.com, jwburgeson@juno.com
>CC: asa@calvin.edu
>Subject: Re: Sin?
>Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:06:45 EDT
>
>
>In a message dated 7/5/03 8:41:23 AM, gmurphy@raex.com writes:
>
>
> > Now Paul may indeed have had in mind only particular types of what we
>call
> > today
> > homosexual practices and he probably did not have the concept of
>"homosexual
> > orientation" as it's developed in recent years.¬Ý (& by the same token
>one
> > can't argue
> > that he intended to _omit_ homosexual acts within a committed loving
> > relationship from
> > the negative statements he does make about same-sex relationships.)¬Ý
>But I
> > think it's
> > clear that he lists homosexual activity, to the extent that he was aware
>of
> > it, as one
> > of the sins consequent upon the fundamental Sin.¬Ý
> >
> > ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý Shalom,
> > ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý ¬Ý George¬Ý ¬Ý
> >
>George,
>
>I was knocked off the Internet on Sunday night by a thundertorm.¬Ý It took
>me
>two days and a hundred bucks for technical help to get back on.¬Ý Now I
>would
>like to address your comments above.
>
>Your post was directed to Burgy, but since he and I are on the same page in
>this discussion, I would like to respond with additional comments and
>questions, if I may.
>
>Your statement is made from a theological perspective, and as usual, is
>well
>stated. This time, however, I would like your comments from a scientific
>view
>on how scientific findings re homosexual orientation relate to our
>interpretation of Paul’Äôs views.
>
>Biological factors are looking more and more important as influences on
>homosexual orientation, as David Myers wrote (’ÄúAccepting What Cannot Be
>Changed,’Ä?
>Perspectives, June/July, 1999). He refers to studies that provide new
>evidence
>that differences exist between homosexual and heterosexual men both in
>prenatal hormones and in a region of the brain known to influence sexual
>behavior.¬Ý
>Myers, who is conservative in these matters, is properly cautious about
>accepting these studies of biological influences, but leans toward
>recognizing their
>weight.
>
>He, however, is more persuaded that ’Äú[E]fforts to change one’Äôs sexual
>orientation usually (some say, virtually always) fail.’Ä? After reviewing
>some
>research findings he concluded:
>
>¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý ’ÄúBut this much seems certain.¬Ý Many gay and lesbian Christians
>have felt
>called to ¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý ¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý¬Ý heterosexuality, but after years of
>effort,
>prayer, laying on of hands, Christian counseling, and searing
>guilt
>have found only misery, and in some cases lost faith.¬Ý This fact of life
>is
> recognized by my denomination, the Reformed Church in America, whose
>Theological Commission statements have discerned (in the
>words of
>the church’Äôs 1998 document) that, 'despite the uncertainty over
>its
>cause, the sexual orientation of a person, in most cases, is
>highly
>resistant to change.'’Ä?
>
>I take this to mean that one’Äôs sexual orientation is not a matter of
>choice.¬Ý
>Homosexual people do not choose their sexual orientation any more than
>straight people do.¬Ý Our sexual orientation is thrust upon us, not chosen.
>
>You said that Paul ’Äúprobably did not have the concept of ’Äò
>homosexualorientation’Äô as it's developed in recent years.’Ä? Neither did
>he know that our sexual
>(hetero- and homo-) orientation is probably influenced by our biology and
>that
>it is ’Äúhighly resistant to change.’Ä? Nor did he have the concept of a
>loving
>committed relationship between two homosexual people.
>
>In Paul’Äôs letter to the Romans he wrote that ’Äúwomen _exchanged_ natural
>intercourse for unnatural,¬Ý and in the same way also the men, _giving up_
>natural
>intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another.’Ä?¬Ý
>(Romans
>1: 26, 27; NRSV) I think Paul is referring to people with a heterosexual
>orientation who deliberately engage in homosexual behavior for the thrill
>of it or
>for whatever other reasons. Such people deliberately choose homosexual
>activity. That is one of the sins that grows out of the fundamental Sin of
>idolatry,
>as you point out.
>
>But that is not the picture of persons with a homosexual orientation that
>Myers paints, or that I have experienced. Quite the opposite.¬Ý Many people
>with a
>homosexual orientation have tried to exchange it for a heterosexual one,
>and
>by far the largest number of them have failed.
>
>Strange as it may seem, I think we need to distinguish between what might
>be
>called ’Äúnatural homosexual orientation,’Ä? the picture of which is
>emerging
>from the work of those who are studying sexual orientation scientifically,
>and on
>the other hand, the ’Äúsinfully chosen homosexual behavior’Ä? that Paul
>describes. I find it hard to believe that a ’Äúnatural homosexual
>orientation’Ä?
>described by Myers or that is found in a loving committed homosexual
>relationship of
>people I have known, is a consequence of the Sin of idolatry.
>
>Am I missing something?¬Ý Thanks in advance for your comments.
>
>Peace,
>
>Bob
>
>
>
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