From: Sondra Brasile (sbrasile@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jul 15 2003 - 12:36:19 EDT
Burgy,
I strongly dissagree and am sorry that you cannot see it the way I do, which
I feel of course is the "right" way; I know you feel the same way, so we
will have to agree to dissagree. In my mind it's a shame that somehow you've
"missed" what I see, I will pray that you are enlightened and you do the
same for me, deal?
I have to add that I do not see homosexuality as a reason to treat a person
badly, in fact they need understanding, love and support, but like all sin
it should not be accepted as a sanctioned behavior, but neither should they
be singled out as a "worse kind" of sinner. If a homosexual person ever
*asked* me what I thought about it, I would tell them, other than that they
would probably assume I have no problem with it because I would treat them
no differently than anyone else and say nothing. Their issues are between
them and God, and none of my business. Although if someone close to me where
to indulge in homosexual behavior I would, out of concern, tell them one
time, the way I felt God views the practice. It would be up to them to agree
or dissagree, but it's not my place to force my morals (or beliefs) onto
another person.
Where the church is concerned; I think the church should not allow a
homosexual couple to become members of the church, but neither do I think
they should let an active alcoholic, drug addict, liar or adulterer, etc...
BUT that means they would have to "know" about these things. Unfortunately
for the church most of these things are easily hidden, and even more easily
ignored. I have read stories about pastors that are addicted to pornography
and stuff, so it's a dilemma, how does the church "find out" about secret
sins and why only hold a person responsible only because their "sin" cannot
be hidden as easily?
I know I always break out in a story, but that is the best way I can
communicate most of my "meanings", sorry;
I had problems with the leader of a mission trip and to make an extremely
long story short he tortured me the entire time, he singled me out (maybe he
viewed me as a "bad" woman because I have a strong personality and am
independent, or maybe else he had the "hots" for me and this was his lame
attempt to get me to notice him), although my husband was there with me (and
has no problems with my independence, in fact he loves that part about me) I
assume, maybe he set out to teach me "my place" because he tortured me the
entire trip and even routinely lied to me and the group to cause me more
problems. He made sure that my husband and I were apart the entire trip so
that even my husband wouldn't be a witness to his torment of me. When we got
home I tried to work things out with him, I had found out most of his lies
and wanted to confront him in the presence of my husband and the leaders of
the church, he told me to "get lost" (pretty much) and refused any further
communication. I just let it go and tried to forget about it for a year but
then he applied to be an "elder" of our church, the pastor announced it and
asked the congregation "if you have any reason why any of these men do not
merit eldership, please report this to the church leaders" I was compelled
to do as they asked. I told the whole story to an elder and then two
pastors, he prceeded to lie to all of them and accuse me of making the whole
thing up. When I tried to get witnesses (there were witnesses) they accused
me of gossiping, being a troublemaker, etc...
My defense was reduced to; that I have never spoken up about anything in the
church before and I had absolutely nothing to gain by lying. I had never
spoken a word about anything until THEY asked if anyone had a reason why the
guy shouldn't be an elder, that logic was ignored. Anyway, I think this guy
has some serious problems and because the church refused to listen to me (I
assume because I'm a woman) I think they're going to be very sorry some day.
If I would have showed up at that meeting with proof that he was a
homosexual (or would have said that he raped me, which I WAS afraid of at
one point...he forced me to be alone with him and started to "pour out his
heart" I recognized it as manipulation. Honestly, I wish I wasn't a
Christian so that I could have lied and said he did something blatantly
innapropriate, even if he would have they probably would have accused me of
lying about it anyway), if they'd have heard the word homosexual, that would
have gotten their attention, he would have been immediately out of the job.
BUT apparently lying, practically kidnapping another man's wife (maybe to
try to 'get me' to show him affection, trying to seduce me possibly? He was
telling me about how hard it was to be the leader, blah blah blah, and his
conscience maybe was bothering him because he admitted that one of his
issues was lying, I told him the Bible says God "hates liars"; that made him
very angry, he started shouting at me which made me even more uncomfortable,
but at least he didn't come near me) and just being an evil person doesn't
pertain. Initially the pastor was very angry about him forcing me to be
alone with him, but apparently he must have lied, again, and the pastor
believed him because it never came up again.
The hypocrisy is what I'm talking about, that they would blatantly refuse a
homosexual any part with the church, but a liar, manipulator, and who knows
what else, is allowed free reign and even allowed to become a church
"leader". Either way, they felt that they had appeased me enough and told me
he was sorry for whatever happened and I was to forgive him and never speak
of it again (yeah, right! Whatever). Of course he was sorry, he's probably
never been closer to being caught for whatever he was "up to".
Sondra
>From: John W Burgeson <jwburgeson@juno.com>
>To: sbrasile@hotmail.com
>CC: asa@calvin.edu,pastorcraigpeterson@yahoo.com
>Subject: Re: Sin?
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:41:18 -0600
>
>Sondra wrote, in part: "What about natural inclination makes one accept a
>behavior as sanctioned? I
>would bet my right arm that all "vices" are rooted in our genetic code
>somewhere, but where are the studies? One is prone to alcohol and another
>is
>prone to homosexuality, what about that makes it "ok" to indulge in a
>vice? "
>
>I agree with your argument. If a particular behavior is a vice (or sin)
>than a predisposition to engage in it, whether that predisposition is
>caused by choice, nature or nurture, does not excuse it.
>
>The argument I make is that same-gender intimacy, when it is part of an
>adult loving domestic relationship. is not included in that category
>(sin) as far as scripture is concerned.
>
>John Burgeson (Burgy)
>
>www.burgy.50megs.com
>
>
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