Re: Scripture and the ASA; Robt Rogland's post

From: PASAlist@aol.com
Date: Wed Jun 19 2002 - 22:56:54 EDT

  • Next message: douglas.hayworth@perbio.com: "Re: Scripture and the ASA; Robt Rogland's post"

    << To take a different tack, if creation is fundamentally dynamic &
     evolutionary, it's not surprising that the ethical sense of human beings
    would
     also evolve. & if God limits divine action to what is within the capacity of
     creatures, then ~3000 years ago God had to work with people for whom
    massacres,
     slavery, &c were the way things were done. >>

    I think this is a very important point. When Jesus spoke of the concession of
    the OT to divorce (for any reason whatsoever), he put the blame on man's
    hardness of heart (Matt 19:8). That hardness was the essence of sin, i.e,
    self-centeredness, but it was also an ingrained cultural norm. It was for all
    practical purposes outside of the capacity of at least most people of those
    times to accept a law that fully reflected God's nature. God met them where
    they were, putting in place some boundaries to alleviate the evil; but,
    allowing the sub-Christian standard to remain. Of course, as Jesus pointed
    out, there was a revelation in Gen 3 about one woman for one man; but, it
    would take a greater spirituality than reigned at that time to see it.

    In the case of what I think is the most difficult of Burgy's challenges,
    namely, Psa 137:9, we must, as with divorce, first see the cultural norm,
    which included armies dashing babes to death against rocks (2 Kings 8:12;
    Nahum 3:10). Israel had suffered this very experience at the hands of the
    Assyrians (Hosea 13:16) and judging from Psa 137:8 also at the hands of the
    Babylonians. Isaiah (13:16) expected the same thing to happen to the
    Babylonians when Babylon was conquered. For a defeated people to have their
    babes killed by having them smashed against rocks was, amazing to our refined
    senses, expected. It was normal.

    Secondly, the Psalmist is addressing a nation (O daughter,
    Babylon---apposition), not individuals as is the center in the ethic of
    Jesus. He is looking forward to seeing its sins against Israel repaid in
    kind. What the Psalmist is asking for is strict justice. The dashing of the
    little ones against the rock is subsumed under his desire for justice.

    Also, it may be that the Psalmist was aware either through a prophecy as in
    Isa 13:16, or the recurring theme in the OT that nations rise and when filled
    with sin fall by God's judgment, or by some revelation given to him
    personally that Babylon's time for judgment was coming. That it was God's
    will to render strict justice, to judge Babylon in a final way---a way which
    in the normal course of events would include the dashing of babes against
    rocks. I note that the Psalmist looks to the Lord for the judgment of Edom in
    v. 7; and I do not think he has forgotten the Lord in v. 8. Also, he speaks
    of those who render the justice as "blessed." Given the use of this word in
    other Psalms, I see in it at least the possibility of an awareness that
    Babylon's destruction is not just a fulfillment of a personal wish, but a
    fulfillment of the will of God.

    Although I do not think the Holy Spirit will inspire Christians to speak the
    way the Psalmist does, there are within his words revelation regarding God's
    sovereignty over nations and the righteousness of even terrifying judgment
    upon those who deserve it.

    Compare what is said of Babylon in the book of Revelation. I see a number of
    similarities to Psalm 137:8, 9.

    Revelation 18:5, 6 "for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath
    remembered her iniquities. _Render unto her even as she rendered_, and double
    unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled,
    mingle unto her double....18:20 _Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye
    saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment
    on her....__19:2, 3 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath
    judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication,
    and _he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand._ And a second
    time they say, _Hallelujah. And her smoke goeth up for ever and ever._

    Paul



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