Re: Scripture and the ASA

From: Dawsonzhu@aol.com
Date: Sat Jun 08 2002 - 03:22:51 EDT

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    Tim Ikeda wrote:

    > Viewed
    > within the context of the whole of Christian dogma, I do understand how
    > one may view the slaughter of the Canaanite as potentially "righteous".
    > If one chooses to believe that the slaughter was truly sanctioned by God
    > then one will, by necessity, find ways to support this. There is no
    > other way: it must be accepted as a matter of faith. Personally, I do not
    > believe that the massacre was blessed by what I would characterize as
    > a good and loving deity. So for me, either the deity or the story is the
    > problem. If we give the deity the benefit of the doubt, that leaves the
    > story. And I suspect that is about as far as we can take the discussion.
    >

    This is basically the heart of the issue but I think we
    can cut the Bible a _little_ more slack.

    The scripture can be viewed as the human race coming to
    an understanding of who God is and what that God requires.
    This is not something limited to the Israelites alone, but
    to all of Middle eastern culture. The nature of God does
    change as time progressed in the relationship and is visible
    in the way that scripture unfolds chronologically.

    I give three aspects to view these massacres where the
    third point may address your point to some extent.

    (1) A misdirected divine endorsement:
    The oldest version of God is the "butt kicking" god that
    appeals more to all my youthful fantasies. This is the
    God who humiliates the all-powerful Pharaoh. If you
    think about it a little, people who might have been there
    and really experienced some version of this tale with their
    own eyes, would have had a distorted view of their own place
    in the world and the role of a God in helping them to establish
    it. We all hear what we want to hear to some extent, and surely
    tribes of that time period were the same. So part of this
    issue could be attributed to over zealous reaction to the
    gift of providence. If there was ever a time you might have
    felt "rescued" by the Lord, this is an easy trap you can find
    yourself falling into as a result. In short, it can happen to
    anyone.

    There are references to the excesses of the tribe of Dan in
    that regard (Judges 18) for example. I don't think the
    scripture depicts the Danites as being anything but jerks
    in that passage. So even in the land of Canaan, it was not
    a blanket declaration of annihilation for everyone.

    (2) A command directed out of judgment:
    Likewise consider the Assyrians. The were clearly
    arrogant (even by extra biblical references),
    but they made no special effort to single out
    Jews as a stomping ground for their pride. Although
    Nahum talks of the fall of Nineveh, it is with respect
    to the cruelty to all nations of the middle east that
    the Assyrians inflicted their work on. So "ethnic
    cleansing" was not a general "fatua" against all
    infidels, but selective.

    The Assyrians did not make many friends. The Persians
    did a lot better in that regard.

    (3) A command issued because there were no other options:
    Obviously, that wouldn't explain all of the situations since
    there are references to the Amalekites, where God does
    essentially say to "wipe them out". God does say "drive
    them out" in the case of the Canaanites, but part of that
    comes with slaughter as well. It is difficult to defend
    that as a loving God (at least viewed from the loser's
    frame of reference). It would be of value to learn what
    extra biblical sources say on this matter (if anything).

    Here I will speculate (as this is ultimately an issue
    of faith and that forces me to accept that some of this
    has a role in a bigger picture that I also have difficulty
    understanding). I think it may have ultimately have
    come down to "kill or be killed". What I am
    saying is that given the time, the flow of information,
    and the level of empathy and self awareness accessible to
    groups of that time period, there really may have been NO
    other options (even given a loving and forgiving, God).

    At least in modern times, there is greater flow of
    information. Some cultures have a little more empathy
    and self awareness than before, or at least there is
    greater capacity for reflective thinking. Free countries
    at least have some place where a person can stand on a
    soapbox and point out the sins of the nation and at least
    _a few_ will listen. The Lord did say of Sodom a Gomorra
    that "for the sake of ten [righteous people], I will not
    destroy it". Surely we _can_ expect that at least some
    will listen, so it would be wrong under any circumstance
    today to rationalize the slaughter of innocent people (who
    can be changed by those few who do listen and obey). What
    happened in history in the context of a given time however,
    is not as clear to me.

    Not every solution is a desirable one and even an all
    powerful and loving God cannot change a person's mind
    unless they are willing to change. So whereas I find
    much of the OT quite repugnant with regard to these
    "holy wars", they are in the past, and Israel grew up
    to recognize a far different God than that butt-kicking
    god of their youth (and my own youth as well).

    by Grace we proceed,
    Wayne

     



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