Re: How old is mitDNA Eve?: implications of early hominids

From: bivalve (bivalve@mail.davidson.alumlink.com)
Date: Wed Jun 05 2002 - 19:05:15 EDT

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    Mutation rate differs from the board measurement in that it varies
    not only from organism to organism but also within the genome of a
    single individual and also over time, especially over geologic time.
    This makes it difficult to get a good measurement. Organisms with
    relatively short lifespans or with well-documented genealogies are
    amenable to studies of mutation rate based on known starting and
    ending points. Extrapolating them back farther into the past runs
    into two problems. First, the starting point is imprecisely known.
    It is very unlikely that we will have and be able to recognize the
    fossil of the very last common ancestor of the two lineages. For
    example, in the case of the chimp-human split, primates tend to live
    in tropical forest settings, which is a lousy place to get
    fossilized. Thus, our data on the occurrence of the fossils is
    somewhat patchy. Furthermore, what we want in order to date the
    split is the very last common ancestor of chimps and humans.!
       Thus, we are looking for something with some features of both, but
    probably with a few distinctive features of its own, and lacking some
    of the distinctive features of either group. Such an individual may
    be difficult to distinguish from a generic ape. On the other hand,
    if one branch (in this case, the chimp) has changed relatively
    little, then the fossil of the common ancestor might look like a
    fossil chimp. Furthermore, it is possible that a population with the
    ancestral form survived after the ancestors of chimps and humans
    split, so that the last occurrence of an intermediate-looking form
    may postdate the split. On the other hand, the oldest definite
    ancestor of only one (e.g., the first definite hominid fossil) is
    probably not the very oldest individual, because the odds that the
    very first one got fossilized and found are very low. From a
    geologic point of view, the uncertainties may still not be too large,
    but they introduce a margin of error that is not alway!
    s factored into molecular clock calculations.

    Note that this does not support the claim that there are no
    transitional forms. There are plenty of transitional forms, but
    identifying a particular fossil as the shared great-great...great
    grandparent of both modern lineages (and thus the starting time for
    the mutation rate calculation), as opposed to a cousin, uncle, etc.
    is probably impossible.

    The other problem is that the mutation rate is unlikely to be
    constant over long periods of time, and thus a simple division of
    number of mutations by time is often inadequate. Environmental
    factors such as the level of UV, radioactivity, oxygen, and
    competitive pressure (if the going is easy more mutants survive)
    vary. Organisms may evolve changes in their DNA copying systems that
    affect the mutation frequency. All of this complicates the picture.

         Dr. David Campbell
         Old Seashells
         University of Alabama
         Biodiversity & Systematics
         Dept. Biological Sciences
         Box 870345
         Tuscaloosa, AL 35487 USA
         bivalve@mail.davidson.alumlink.com

    That is Uncle Joe, taken in the masonic regalia of a Grand Exalted
    Periwinkle of the Mystic Order of Whelks-P.G. Wodehouse, Romance at
    Droitgate Spa

    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: "J Burgeson" <hoss_radbourne@hotmail.com>
    Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 10:30:41 -0600

    >
    >Wally wrote: "I did however note how barbaric I thought it was to require
    >that kind of
    >indirect measurement of a fundamental quantity."
    >
    >Interesting idea. Of course most of the "fundemental quantities" we measure
    >are done indirectly.
    >
    >I suppose even the measurement of a board with a steel tape is indirect -- I
    >do this all the time at the H4H houses I'm working on this summer. One
    >always assumes the steel tape has been correctly calibrated. There seems to
    >be a continuum of "indirectness" in scientific measurements. I don't see
    >that "mutation rate" differs in kind from my board measurements, only in
    >degree of difficulty.
    >
    >Burgy
    >
    >_________________________________________________________________
    >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
    >



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