RE: Herodotus' Mice and the need for historical verification

From: Dr. Blake Nelson (bnelson301@yahoo.com)
Date: Mon Jun 03 2002 - 00:51:08 EDT

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    The answer for the reasons below is probably yes and
    no. (Isn't it always?)

    --- Glenn Morton <glenn.morton@btinternet.com> wrote:
    (snip)

    > >I think what I said -- or at least MEANT, was that
    > I could not
    > >think of any
    > >way in which anything in scripture was falsifiable.
    > I may well be wrong
    > >though.
    > >
    >
    > If it isn't falsifiable, then do we merely believe
    > it because we beleive it
    > to be true? Is faith really based on that type of
    > thin ice?
    > >

    Whether or not I have a personal relationship with God
    is not testable and hence not falsifiable. Anyone but
    me can say I am merely deluded, thinking wishfully,
    crazy, etc. Only I can believe it to be true or not.
    More on that below.

    Whether or not God acts in the world is also not a
    scientific hypothesis in the traditional sense
    (although folks like Dawkins and Atkins desperately
    want to characterize it as such to foist atheistic
    triumphalism on us all). Science can illuminate, at
    the most, the extent to which there _may_ be room for
    God to act within "natural" processes as we understand
    them (e.g., quantum indeterminancy, chaos theory,
    etc.). This understanding, of course, is subject to
    possible change.

    The historical content of a document can be subject to
    cross checking with what we can ascertain based on a
    geologic, archaeological, other historical records,
    etc. Even if accurate, it does not mean the
    theological claims the document makes are true,
    because those are not subject to the same kind of
    cross checking. Although I agree that the
    verification of a document that is possible makes us
    less suspect of a document than of a document that has
    no indicia of accuracy at all.

    In terms of Christianity, we have the witness of the
    church stretching back to the apostles' experience of
    the risen Christ, including documents which seem
    otherwise reliable, that are written recollections of
    that experience and of the experience of the life of
    Jesus. The validity of that resurrection experience
    can never be proven by the archaeological or other
    historic records, only its consequence, which is the
    Church and the faith of individuals can be seen
    through things like recorded martyrdoms, Christian
    symbols left in the archaeological record, written
    documents, etc..

    In terms of the existence of a personal God, this is
    really a philosophical discussion about what
    constitutes proof. Plantinga argues that belief in
    God should be a properly basic belief. Skeptics
    demand that it is an extraordinary claim that warrants
    extraordinary proof (of course they want to import a
    view of God as a magician). Atheists and skeptics
    (and sadly some liberal theologians) argue that the
    experience of the early Church of the risen Christ was
    mass delusion of one sort or another and the
    historical fact of the proclamation of the
    resurrection is no more than continually compounded
    error through indoctrination of dogma into helpless
    children and pandering to the wish fulfillment of
    credulous minds.

    How do we test who is right about that? What
    constitutes proof? Logical positivists demand
    empirical evidence. Atheists like Anthony Flew demand
    a coherent definition of God before they say the claim
    that such a thing exists can be evaluated. Popperians
    and A.J. Ayer demand a falsifiable hypothesis. Each
    of these demands for proof is an implicit
    epistemological statement of faith. No one can
    empirically test empiricism. Ayer's statement that
    all true statements must be fasifiable is not
    falsifiable, etc., etc. Skepticism, empricism,
    logical positivism, etc. are all built on such thin
    foundations of mere belief. Faith that thier
    epistemological perspective is true.

    How is whether Genesis is historically accurate any
    help vis-a-vis the resurrection and Christian faith?

    If I believe Genesis is historically accurate (as far
    as I can test it), but am still skeptical of the
    resurrection, I should be Jewish or some form of
    theism other than Christian, right?

    Again, I am not saying any part of the Old Testament
    is not historicaly accurate. I just don't think that
    fact gets us very much closer to being rational about
    being Christian. I would say it gives us one less
    possible reason to be skeptical.

    Thus, the New Testament witness to the divinity of
    Jesus of Nazarateh is central to Christianity. The
    historicity of those texts is important to verify, to
    the extent possible, to determine the reliability of
    the texts. But no amount of historical, archaeologic
    or geologic evidence is going to convince a Peter
    Atkins or David Hume who would reject anything
    miraculous as either a mistaken belief
    (delusion/madness/wishfulness) or fabrication because
    of their epistemological suppositions. For Atkins or
    Hume, no amount of historical accuracy would convince
    them of Jesus' miracles, because of their strong faith
    in their epistemological perspective.

    If it were demonstrably proveable (which is harder
    than it appears, but I will leave that aside) that a
    crazed monk wrote the entire Bible in 500 A.D., I
    would have more reasons to be skeptical of the claims
    of such a document and the religion built around it.
    However, I still have lots of data that point me
    toward (but does not prove) the existence of God and
    the experience of what I may simply be deluded into
    believing is the experience of God in my life. The
    history of the Church is also a history that arguably
    manifests the work of the Holy Spirit (it also has its
    tragedies and betrayals of Christian principles, as
    many atheists would like to point out).

    Ultimately, you accept epistemology only on faith
    regardless of whether you are a hard core logical
    positivist or a theist or anything else. Everything
    in your and my belief system is based not on absolute
    proof (which is unobtainable in ANYTHING), but on
    probability. Different faith beliefs about
    epistemology change how one weighs and calculates
    those probabilities. Thus, we all have a substrate of
    faith for everything in our lives, including our own
    existence and the existence of the universe and other
    persons, none of which are technically provable.

    Blake

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