Re: Discussion of Dembski's paper

From: Jonathan Clarke (jdac@alphalink.com.au)
Date: Fri Jan 26 2001 - 19:23:12 EST

  • Next message: Jonathan Clarke: "Re: Discussion of Dembski's paper - Addendum"

    In summary, this paper:

    (i) creates a dichotomy between ID and evolution which Dembski has
    elsewhere denied
    (ii) minimizes (or ignores) empirical evidence for evolution.
    (iii) denies the demonstrated ability to test organic evolution through
    retrodiction and darwinian evolution by prediction.
    (iv) endows gaps in naturalistic explanations in biology with a
    significance greater than that of similar gaps in other natural
    sciences.

    I will just pick on a few points in detail. I will use JC to
    distinguish the beginning of sections containing my comments.

    7b & 8. Is intelligent design falsifiable? Is Darwinism falsifiable?
    Yes to the first question, no to the
    second (snip).

    On the other hand, falsifying Darwinism seems effectively impossible. To
    do so one must show
    that no conceivable Darwinian pathway could have led to a given
    biological structure (snip).

    JC How is it possible to falsify intelligent design in general (to me a
    belief that the the universe is the result of the actions of a creative
    designer? It is possible to falsify the Intelligent Designer of the ID
    movement, by showing naturalistic paths to achieve the apparently
    irreducible complexity. To me, this is the fatal flaw of the whole
    movement as many will inevitability jump to the conclusion that
    falsification of the second means that the first is also falsified.
    This was the whole problem of Paley and Darwin and God of the gaps
    thinking.

    JC Secondly both evolution in general and darwinian evolution are
    falsifiable. Evolution in general (descent with modification) is
    falsifiable by detailed study of fossil lineages and molecular
    biological studies. Darwinian evolution (natural and sexual selection)
    is falsifiable by field and laboratory studies. As I recall,
    neodarwinian evolution also includes for geographic isolation

    12. (snip) From the design theorist's perspective, the positive
    evidence for Darwinism is confined to small scale evolutionary changes
    like insects developing insecticide resistance. (snip)

    JC. This is understating the evidence, which goes far beyond toxin
    resistance or even industrial melanism. Speciation has been observed in
    historic times when new ecological niches have been created. Example I
    recall include as introduced rodents in sub-antarctic islands,
    appearance of indigenous arthropods to feed on introduced plants in
    Australia, similar appearance of fruit flies to feed on bananas in
    Hawaii, and speciation events of fish adapted to flowing waters to
    tranquil waters. The changes involved in these examples included in
    feeding strategies, limb and jaw morphology, and chromosome number.

    Now if Dembski has alternative explanations, that is fine. But he
    should not ignore these data, or even state that they don't exist. But
    perhaps he doesn't know about them.

    23. (snip) ...intelligent design utterly rejects natural selection as a
    creative force capable of bringing about the specified complexity we see
    in organisms.

    JC This is an a priori statement of belief. The intelligent designer
    cannot use natural selection as a creative force. This does not say
    much for the intelligent designer as even we use genetic algorithms in
    design. I see an implied definition of specified complexity: that which
    cannot be explained by natural selection. How is this different from an
    intelligent designer of the gaps?

    I find it curious that Dembski should say this. His name is on the
    subcommittee of the ASA Commission on Creation found on the ASA home
    page. It says with respect to ID: "ID is logically consistent... with
    theistic evolution..." Theistic evolution includes Darwinian variants.

    24. It's evident, then, that Darwin's theory has virtually no
    predictive power. (snip). Newton was able to predict the path that a
    planet traces out. Darwin's disciples can neither predict nor retrodict
    the pathways that organisms trace out in the course of natural history.

    JC Partly false. While I think it is true that you cannot use
    specifically Darwinian retrodictions for the ancestry of organisms, some
    can make some general evolutionary ones. One can predict what sort of
    ancestry and evolutionary pathway particular organism might have and
    then look for evidence in the fossil record and in molecular biology to
    test that hypothesis. If that does that work one can look for
    alternative evolutionary explanations. If none of them work, and there
    is good data of the fossil history and molecular biology of an organism
    then the time might have come to think of non-evolutionary explanations.

    With contemporary organisms, darwinian theories postulate particular
    responses to changing environments. These can, and have, been tested in
    both the field and the laboratory. It is specious to deny either of
    these.

    Dembski also confuses the differences between prediction in the physical
    sciences which is perscriptive) with than in the historical sciences
    (which is probablistic).

    29 & 30. The same cannot be said for Darwinism and the naturalism it
    embodies as a framework for
    science. Suppose I were a super-genius molecular biologist, and I
    invented some hitherto unknown
    molecular machine, far more complicated and marvelous than the bacterial
    flagellum. Suppose further
    I inserted this machine into a bacterium, set this genetically modified
    organism free, allowed it to
    reproduce in the wild, and destroyed all evidence of my having created
    the molecular machine. Suppose, for instance, the machine is a stinger
    that injects other bacteria and explodes them by rapidly pumping them up
    with some gas (I'm not familiar with any such molecular machine in the
    wild), thereby allowing the bacteria endowed with my invention to
    consume their unfortunate prey.

    30(i). Now let's ask the question, If a Darwinist came upon this
    bacterium with the novel molecular
    machine in the wild, would that machine be attributed to design or to
    natural selection? When I
    presented this example to David Sloan Wilson at a conference at MIT two
    years ago, he shrugged it
    off and remarked that natural selection created us and so by extension
    also created my novel
    molecular machine. But of course this argument won't wash since the
    issue is whether natural
    selection could indeed create us. What's more, if Darwinists came upon
    my invention of a novel
    molecular machine inserted into a bacterium that allows it to feed on
    other bacteria, they wouldn't
    look to design but would reflexively turn to natural selection. But, if
    we go with the story, I designed
    the bacterial stinger and natural selection had nothing to do with it.
    (snip)

    JC I have quoted the above in full because it illustrates a number of
    interesting points. The example itself appears to be to be a fictitious
    equivalent to the bombardier beetle. Essentially: biological feature X
    appears extremely improbable/complex and cannot be (easily) explained by
    natural selection. It is therefore proof of special
    creation/intelligent design.

    What interests me about such examples in the ID movement is that they
    are always biological. Why are biological features considered to be
    especially indicative of ID when they are difficult to explain by
    "naturalistic" mechanisms? Why not problems in astronomy and geology?
    It is not that such problems do not exist. The origin of sedimentary
    minerals dolomite and glauconite very problematic form many years and
    still have not been completely "solved". A problem I am particular
    interested in with no clear solution (but several lines of possibility)
    are the spicule beds of the Late Eocene of southern Australia. Quasars
    were an intractable issue for many years in astronomy, gamma ray
    bursters still are. No fully satisfactory explanation for the origin of
    Uranus and Neptune, or the extra solar "hot Jupiters" exists, although
    there are some interesting possibilities. Why doesn't the ID movement
    take astronomers and geologists to task for seeking "naturalistic"
    solutions to the problems? Is it because biological systems are
    perceived to be different? A deep seated vitalism, perhaps?

    As a tangent to this, YEC folk would be happy to cite these as examples
    of the inadaquacy of "uniformitarianism" However, they seek to explain
    them through the flood (at least the geological examples) or the result
    of event creation. In themselves the explanations for these phenomena
    are naturalistic within a global flood. A rare exception would be
    Gentry's pleochroic haloes. Why is this the case?

    30(ii) Moreover, intelligent design would confirm the stinger's design
    whereas Darwinism never could. It follows that a design-theoretic
    framework could account for biological facts that would forever remain
    invisible within a Darwinian framework. It seems to me that this
    possibility constitutes a joint test of Darwinism and intelligent design
    that strongly supports intelligent design -- if not as the truth then
    certainly as a live possible theoretical option that must not be
    precluded for a priori philosophical reasons like naturalism.

    JC Two thoughts seem to be contained in the last 4 sentences of 30. A:
    Darwinian explanations can never confirm design. B: A reiteration that
    ID and darwinian explanations are mutually exclusive (a point he has
    made in several ways earlier).

    With respect to A, why should this be the case? Certainly some (like
    Dawkins) have argued it, but is it necessary? Do naturalistic accounts
    of origins exclude a designer? Working purely within the framework of
    "naturalistic" physics and cosmology, some, like Davies orJastrow, see
    evidence pointing to the possibility of some form of deistic ID.

    With respect to B, a metaphysical naturalist must presuppose
    "naturalistic" process. However a non- metaphysical naturalist,
    especially a Biblical theist, should see no reason for naturalistic
    processes excluding God or "an intelligent designer".

    Respectfully

    Jon

    Jack Haas wrote:

    > Greetings: Bill Dembski has been developing his 'intelligent design'
    > ideas for a decade or so. During this period his work has been heavily
    > discussed by the evangelical community and the broader scientific and
    > educational world. PCSF and this list have had their chance to
    > critique his ideas - often negatively. Bill's response to a recent U.
    > C. Berkeley talk by National Center for Science Education director
    > Eugenie Scott represents both a spirited defense of his thought and a
    > chance to catch up with his current ideas. Iwould propose that the
    > list read his paper (attached) and comment on it. If we get some
    > thoughtful response I'd be willing to pull it together and place the
    > article and a summary of responses on the ASA web page. Is he saying
    > anything new these days? Has he learned anything from 'friendly'
    > critics in the past? Has his critique of contemporary Darwinism
    > gained ground? Where is lacking about ID for the working scientist?
    > Where have his arguments gone right? Wrong? Etc., etc., etc. I have
    > numbered the paragraphs for ease in making citations. ThanksJack Haas



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