Reflectorites
On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:52:14 -0000, Richard Wein wrote:
[...]
>CC>Paul does such as good a job on this one as I would have, and probably in
>>less space, that I won't repeat what he says. One of main arguments was
>>going to be to the effect that the accounts of Jesus, having been written
>>by people who knew of the earlier predictions, would simply write their
>>character to fit the predictions. I could easily do the same; gather up
>>some old prophecies, create a name for my character (assuming the
>>prophecies did not include the names), and then simply design his "career"
>>to match the prophecies. In fact, *other* writers of fiction (than those
>>who created and cobbled together the gospel stories) use this technique
>>more or less frequently (but usually more honestly).
[...]
RW>There are two other possibilities:
>1. Jesus was aware of the prophecies and matched his actions to the
>prophecies.
This may in fact be true of some prophecies. The New Testament indicates
that Jesus grew up like a normal child and that he only gradually became
aware of who He was. A legitimate part of this becoming aware of who He
was and what was to do, may have been His reading of what the Old Testament
prophecies said the Messiah would do.
But as Geisler points out above there were some prophecies (like Mic 5:2 and
Dan 9:24-27) that were outside the power of Jesus or His followers to fulfill,
unless Jesus was who He said He was.
RW>2. Out of many claimed messiahs, Jesus was the one widely accepted because
>the events of his life happened to roughly fit the prophecies.
Even if Jesus did only "roughly fit the prophecies" this would be sufficient,
because there are *hundreds* of them:
"Biblical Predictions. Messianic Predictions. There are two broad
categories of biblical prophecy: messianic and nonmessianic. Payne
(ibid., 665-70) lists 191 prophecies concerning the anticipated
Jewish Messiah and Savior. Each was literally fulfilled in the life,
death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth ..." (Geisler
N.L., "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," 1999, p.610)
The probability of them all being fulfilled even "roughly" in one person
would presumably be *astronomical*:
"It is unlikely that all these events would have converged in the life
of one man. Mathematicians (Stoner, 108) have calculated the
probability of sixteen predictions being fulfilled in one man (e.g.,
Jesus) at 1 in 10^45. That forty-eight predictions might meet in one
person, the probability is 1 in 10^157. It is almost impossible to
conceive of a number that large." (Geisler N.L., 1999, p.613).
RW>In the case of the Daniel prophecy, however, it just sounds like post-hoc
>reinterpretation of the prophecy to fit the alleged facts.
No. I produced non-Christian (i.e. Jewish and Roman) historical evidence
that the Jews were expecting the Messiah at that very time, and the only
prophecy there is in the Old Testament that predicts the time of the
Messiah is Dan 9:24-27.
See attached paper by physicist-theologian Robert Newman who improves
on the 360 day-year calculation by using the Jewish 7-year Sabbath year
cycles. This was actually mentioned in his the quote from him I originally
posted but I did not then understand its significance.
The combination of: 1) a reasonable terminus ad quo and method of
calculation; 2) confirmed by the historical evidence that the Jews were
expecting the Messiah at this time; and 3) the fact that Jesus came at that
very time and founded a world religion; is *overwhelming* evidence that
Jesus is who He said He was - the Messiah!
Steve
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http://www.ibri.org/09timeofmessiah.htm
IBRI Research Report #9 (1981, 1988)
THE TIME OF THE MESSIAH
Robert C. Newman
Biblical Theological Seminary
Hatfield, Pennsylvania
ABSTRACT
The historical sources from the first two centuries AD indicate that the
period was a time when the Messiah was expected to appear in fulfillment of
some OT prophecy, probably Daniel 9:24-27. The classic calculation of Sir
Robert Anderson faces some serious difficulties, but these may be resolved
by taking the "weeks" of this prophecy to be the OT seven-year land use
cycle. The result points to Jesus as the fulfillment of this prophecy.
INTRODUCTION
According to ancient historians, the first century AD was a time of unusual
expectation among the Jews. The feeling was widespread that some
prophecy regarding the time of Messiah's coming was about to expire. The
Roman historian Suetonius (early 2nd cen) says of the Jewish revolt against
Rome (AD 66-73):
There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was
fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This
prediction, referring to the Emperor of Rome, as afterwards appeared from
the event, the people of Judaea took to themselves.1
Suetonius' contemporary Tacitus also speaks of this prophecy, supplying
more information about its source:
... in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their
priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to
grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal
empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus,
but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had
interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought
even by disasters to believe the truth.2
Closer to the scene, and writing less than ten years after the fall of Jerusalem
in AD 70, was the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. Josephus wrote before
Titus succeeded his father Vespasian as emperor, and he indicates only a
single expected ruler:
But now, what did most elevate them in undertaking this war was an
ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how "about
that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable
earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular;
and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.
Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was
appointed emperor in Judea.3
Josephus' application of the prophecy to his patron Vespasian is
understandable, but it is doubtful that his fellow Jews agreed! In any case, a
large number of them were ready to follow Bar-Kochba in another
disastrous revolt only sixty years later, when Rabbi Akiba proclaimed him
Messiah.4
By the middle of the third century, however, a mood of resignation had set
in among the Jews. The scholar Rab admitted that "all the predestined dates
have passed." He explained the apparent delay of the Messiah by suggesting
that his coming now awaits Israel's repentance and good works.5
So ancient sources, both Jewish and pagan, indicate that Old Testament
prophecy foretold a time for the coming of the Messiah, which time expired
in the first century AD. What prophetic passage or passages did they have in
mind? These sources do not tell us, but from early times Christians have
believed that Dan 9:24-27 gives us just such a prediction:6
(24) Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to
finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring
in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint
the most holy.
(25) Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore
and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be
seven "sevens" and sixty-two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a
trench, but in times of trouble.
(26) After the sixty-two "sevens," the Anointed One will be cut off and will
have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city
and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until
the end, and desolations have been decreed.
(27) He will confirm a covenant with many for one "seven." In the middle of
the "seven" he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of
the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the
end that is decreed is poured out on him.
SIR ROBERT ANDERSON'S CALCULATION
There is considerable disagreement among Christians as to how the details
of this passage were fulfilled in the coming of Jesus.7 Currently the most
popular interpretation of this passage is that given by Sir Robert Anderson.8
He pinpoints the end of the sixty-ninth "seven," the coming of Messiah, as
Sunday, April 6, AD 32, claiming this was the very day of Jesus' triumphal
entry into Jerusalem.9
In brief, Anderson identifies the command "to restore and rebuild Jerusalem"
(Dan 9:25) with the permission given Nehemiah by the Persian king
Artaxerxes I (Neh 2:6) to rebuild the city. Neh 2:1 tells us this occurred in
the month Nisan of the king's 20th regnal year. Assuming that this command
was given on the first day of the month, Anderson locates the starting point
at March 15, 445 BC.
Since the Messiah is to be cut off after the first sixty-nine "sevens" (7 + 62),
we should be able to calculate when this would occur. Virtually all
commentators, liberal or conservative, agree that the "sevens" (often
translated "weeks") of the prediction are periods of seven years. If so, 483
years (69 x 7) after March 15, 445 BC carries us to March 15, AD 39, some
years after Jesus' public ministry ended.
Therefore, Anderson assumes that a special kind of year is being used in the
prophecy, which he calls a "prophetic year," consisting of only 360 days,
rather than our solar years of just under 365 and 1/4 days.10 This
assumption is based on Rev 11:23, where Anderson equates a period of 42
months with a period of 1260 days. These would be exactly equal if each
month were 30 days long, and twelve such months would have 360 days.
With this adjustment, Anderson converts from solar years to prophetic years
and finds the 69th week ending at April 6, AD 32.
Unfortunately, Anderson's view faces some serious problems. First of all,
Anderson arbitrarily chose the first day of the month Nisan as his starting
point11 even though the Bible gives only the month, not the day. But if
Anderson started even a week later, his 69th week would end after the
crucifixion.
Second, Anderson's equation of the first of Nisan with March 15, 445 BC, is
based on modern astronomical calculations. But it is not possible from such
information to locate the beginning of these ancient months so exactly. The
first day of the month depends not only on the location of sun, moon and
stars in antiquity (which modern astronomers can calculate), but also on the
(weather-dependent) observations of these bodies by the ancients from
which they made their decisions regarding when to begin a new year or
month. For this we need historical as well as astronomical information.
There is thus some question about the location of Anderson's starting point.
Third, Anderson has used a 360-day "prophetic year" to measure the length
of the period. But the Old Testament connects the Passover festival, in the
middle of Nisan, with the offering of first-ripe grain (Lev 23:6-14), so that
the Jewish calendar must remain synchronized with the seasons. Both
archaeology and the rabbinic literature indicate that this synchronism was
accomplished by adding an extra lunar month every two or three years to
the 354-day lunar "year,"12 so that in the long run the average length of the
Jewish year just matches our solar year of about 365 and 1/4 days.
Nor does Rev 11:2-3 require a 360-day "prophetic year." This passage does
not say that the Gentiles will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two
months to the day. Using our modern months and years (virtually the same
as used by Rome when Revelation was written), a 1260-day period is about
41 and 1/2 months, which might easily be rounded off to 42. Using the
Hebrew lunar months averaging 29 and 1/2 days each, 1260 days are just
over 42 and 1/2 months. Thus the 42 months and the 1260 days may be
approximately rather than exactly equal. There is no reason to believe the
Bible defines some sort of "prophetic years" of special length.
There is also some question whether Jesus' crucifixion occurred in the year
AD 32. Suggestions range from AD 29-33, with the consensus at present
favoring AD 30.13 Even given the exact year, locating the date of Passover
(and "Palm Sunday" before it) involves the same problem of combining
modern astronomical calculations and ancient calendar decisions mentioned
above. There are thus serious problems identifying April 6, AD 32 with
Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem.
Yet in spite of these objections, a good case can be made for a real
fulfillment of this prophecy, even though the result is not quite so
spectacular as Anderson's. In addition, this alternative suggestion, which we
give here,14 arises much more naturally from the context of the passage.
THE CONTEXT OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY
To understand this prophecy of the seventy "weeks," let us look at its
context. The prophecy itself, Dan 9:24-27, was given the prophet in answer
to his prayer recorded in Dan 9:4-19. The occasion of the prayer is found in
verses one and two of the same chapter. Daniel has just understood from
"books" that the desolation of Jerusalem would last only seventy years. The
time has apparently nearly elapsed, so he prays that God's promise may now
be fulfilled.
What are these "books"? Jeremiah's prophecy is obviously one of them,
since Jeremiah is mentioned by name. But what other book or books might
have been involved? The second book of Chronicles also mentions the
seventy years' captivity (36:21), but since it goes on to describe Cyrus'
decree allowing the Jews to return to Palestine, it had not yet been written
when Daniel made his prayer. However, the writer of Chronicles does
explain that the length of the captivity was seventy years to compensate for
seventy sabbath-years in which the Jews had disobeyed God's command to
let the land lie fallow.
The command instituting the sabbatical year is found in Ex 23:10-11 and
Lev 25:3-7, 18-22. The Exodus passage reads: "For six years you are to
sow your fields and harvest your crops, but during the seventh year let the
land lie unplowed and unused."
In addition to these passages establishing the sabbatical year, Lev 26:32-35
predicts that exile would come upon Israel if they violated the sabbath-year
regulation:
I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be
appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword
and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.
Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the time that it lies desolate and you
are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its
sabbaths. All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did
not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.
Perhaps, then, Exodus and Leviticus are the other books Daniel consulted.
At least these provided all the materials necessary to reach the conclusions
given in 2 Chronicles -- that the length of Israel's exile would correspond to
seventy sabbath years they had neglected. Perhaps Daniel had been thinking
about this God-ordained land-use cycle and the period of seventy such
cycles during which Israel had disobeyed this ordinance. If so, the message
which the angel brought him, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your
people..." seems less obscure. Apparently Dan 9:24-27 uses the term "seven"
(or "week") for the Old Testament sabbath year cycle.15
INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL 9:25-26
In our discussion, we shall consider in detail only the coming of the
Messiah, that is, just the first sixty-nine weeks of Daniel's seventy. As far as
the seventieth week is concerned, some see this as fulfilled immediately after
the 69. Yet the passage itself seems to suggest a gap of indefinite length
between the 69th and 70th weeks. Thus the destruction of the (temple)
sanctuary mentioned in verse 26 is followed by a summary statement of war
and desolation to the end. Then verse 27 speaks of a covenant which
apparently introduces the 70th week, followed by an interruption of
sacrifices, which seems to presuppose a rebuilt temple. In this view, the 70th
week is still future and belongs to the class of yet-to-be fulfilled prophecies.
In any case, this is beyond our concern here.
To calculate the time of the coming of the Messiah, we must consider the
25th and part of the 26th verses of Daniel chapter nine. The translations of
the New American Standard Bible and the New International Version are
similar,16 indicating one Messiah who comes at the end of 7 + 62 weeks.
Having given the NIV above, we cite the NASB here:
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore
and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and
sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of
distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have
nothing...
On the other hand, the Revised Standard Version is characteristic of a group
of translations17 which have two "Messiahs" or "anointed ones," one
coming after 7 weeks and another cut off after an additional 62 weeks:
Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to
restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there
shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks, it shall be built again with
squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an
anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing...
The translation of the RSV group follows the Masoretic punctuation of the
Hebrew Bible, where a division in the sense is made between seven weeks
and sixty-two weeks.18 But such punctuation may not date back before the
ninth or tenth century AD.19 This rendition does, however, explain the
occurrence of the peculiar combination 7 and 62 instead of their sum 69.
In spite of these facts, the parallelism of the passage favors the former
alternative. In the Hebrew, the phrase rendered "restore and rebuild"
consists of the same pair of verbs as are translated "built again" later in the
same verse. Likewise the word "Messiah" is repeated. This parallelism may
be sketched as follows:
From the going forth of the word to build again Jerusalem
To Messiah the Prince shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks
Plaza and moat shall be built again...
And after the 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off.
This parallelism suggests the passage is structured as a summary statement
of two lines mentioning two events and two time periods, followed by two
more lines which give details of each event in turn. Thus we would have one
Messiah or anointed one, whose coming occurs after 69 weeks from the
starting point. Perhaps the first seven weeks, if one may hazard a guess,20
involve the actual rebuilding of the city.
THE STARTING POINT
Various suggestions have been advanced for the proper starting point of the
seventy weeks: (1) God's word at the fall of Jerusalem (586 BC; Jer 25:11-
12; 29:10); (2) Cyrus' word in allowing the captives to return to Jerusalem
(537 BC; 2 Chron 36:23; Ezra 1:2); (3) Artaxerxes' commission to Ezra
(458 BC; Ezra 4:11-12, 23); (4) Artaxerxes' commission to Nehemiah (445
BC; Neh 2:1-6).21 Of these four, only the last actually issued in the
rebuilding of the city wall. In thus making Jerusalem fortified, it became, in
ancient parlance, once more a city and no longer merely a village.
We shall follow this fourth alternative, the same as that used by Anderson.
Neh 2:1 dates this to the twentieth year of Artaxerxes I, namely 445 BC.
Chronological studies since Anderson's time have not changed the year,
though the date of the first of Nisan may be questioned.22
THE SABBATICAL YEAR
Now we must make the calculation forward from 445 BC. Unlike Anderson,
however, we shall use the actual sabbatical cycles as units of measurement
(rather than just adding 7 x 69 years to the starting point), since this fits
better with the context.
Our first concern is to locate these cycles in antiquity if possible, as this will
have some influence on the location of the endpoint. The best-known
evidence for the location of sabbatical cycles in the period under
consideration comes from the first book of Maccabees, a primary historical
source for the Maccabean era. There we find that Jewish resistance to the
Syrians was on one occasion weakened because their food supplies were
low due to the observance of a sabbatical year (1 Macc 6:49, 53-54). A
reference earlier in the chapter (6:20) indicates this occurred in the 150th
year of the Seleucid era. According to Finegan,23 the 150th year would be
either 163/2 or 162/1 BC, depending on whether the Macedonian or
Babylonian calendar was in use.
The first of these alternatives fits the modern Jewish sabbatical cycle very
well;24 the year 164/3 would have been a sabbath, so that famine conditions
would have been most acute in the following year before crops could be
harvested. This modern sabbatical cycle is apparently based on the work of
Zuckermann in 1856.25
Recently, however, Ben Zion Wacholder has reviewed all the data on which
the location of the sabbath cycle was determined, plus additional
information not available when Zuckermann made his study.26 As a result,
he finds the modern cycle in error by one year, and he chooses the second
alternative allowed by 1 Maccabees. Consequently, 163/2 BC is the relevant
sabbath year.27
We shall follow Wacholder's suggestion for the sabbatical cycles in making
our calculation. It is possible that his cycle may be off by one year.
THE CALCULATION
Using Wacholder's list of sabbatical years,28 our calculation is very simple.
Our starting point, the month Nisan in 445 BC, falls in the seven-year cycle
449-442 BC, of which the last year, from September 443 to September 442,
is the seventh or sabbatical year.29 Using the usual Jewish inclusive method
of counting, 449-442 is the first "week" of Daniel's prophecy. The second is
442-435 BC, and so on, down to the transition from BC to AD, where we
need to remember that 1 BC is immediately followed by AD 1, with no year
zero in between (see figure 3).
Figure 3
449 BC 445 442 435 428 ... 8 BC 1 BC AD 7
-1st- -2nd- -3rd- -64th- -65th
AD 7 14 21 28 30 35
-66th- -67th- -68th- -69th
Thus the 69th cycle following Artaxerxes' giving Nehemiah permission to
rebuild Jerusalem is AD 28-35. Just the time that Jesus of Nazareth was "cut
off" in Palestine while claiming to be God's Messiah! Some may be
concerned that Daniel says "after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut
off," whereas by our calculation the crucifixion occurs on the 62nd week
(the 69th, adding the first seven). But this, too, is a conventional Jewish
idiom in which "after" means "after the beginning of." Recall that Jesus'
resurrection is alternatively spoken of as occurring "after three days" (Matt
27:63; Mark 8:31) and also "on the third day" (Matt 20:19; Mark 9:31).
Even if we follow Zuckermann's scheme for the location of the sabbatical
cycle instead of Wacholder's, the 69th cycle only shifts by one year, to AD
27-34, which still fits equally well. Likewise an error by a year or two on
either end, for Artaxerxes 20th year or the date of the crucifixion, would not
change the result. The prediction fits Jesus even allowing for the largest
possible uncertainties in chronology.
CONCLUSIONS
There is real force in this prophecy of the seventy weeks. The use of
sabbatical cycles is favored by the context. Inclusive counting is the regular
Jewish practice. The location of the sabbatical cycles and beginning and end
points could be in error by a year or two without changing the result.
The result itself is quite significant for the history of human thought. In
pointing out Jesus of Nazareth at a distance of centuries, it deals a powerful
blow against the belief that there is no real prediction in history (various
forms of theological liberalism), and it condemns the rejection of Jesus as
Messiah (Judaism and other non-Christian religions).
Of all the Messianic claimants that Judaism has ever had, the only one
considered an outstanding historical figure and ethical teacher (even by
many atheists) just happened to conduct his short public ministry and was
"cut off" within the period AD 28-35!
REFERENCES
1. Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars, "The Deified Vespasian," 4.5.
2. Tacitus, Histories, 5.13.
3. Josephus, Jewish War, 6.5.4.
4. See, for example, Jack Finegan, Light from the Ancient Past, 2nd ed.
(Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1959), p 330.
5. Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b.
6. Some of the earliest Christian commentators: Clement of Alexandria (c
200 AD), Miscellanies, 1.21; Tertullian (c 200), An Answer to the Jews, 8;
Origen (c 225), De Principiis, 4.1.5.
7. See several alternatives in J. Barton Payne, Encyclopedia of Biblical
Prophecy (New York: Harper and Row, 1973), pp 383-389.
8. Sir Robert Anderson, The Coming Prince, 10th ed. (London: James
Nisbet, 1915; reprint Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1957).
9. Ibid., pp v-vi.
10. Ibid., p 72.
11. Ibid., p 122.
12. Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology (Princeton: Princeton
University Press, 1964), sections 58-61.
13. Ibid., sections 454-468.
14. A revision of Robert C. Newman, "Daniel's Seventy Weeks and the Old
Testament Sabbath-Year Cycle," Journal of the Evangelical Theological
Society 16 (1973): 229-234.
15. Incidentally, a remark by the rabbis also associates the coming of the
Messiah with a seven-year period. Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 97a.
16. As also the King James Version, the Berkeley Version, the Amplified
Bible, the Living Bible, the American Standard Version and the Jerusalem
Bible.
17. Including the Jewish Publication Society's translation, the New English
Bible, the Smith-Goodspeed and Moffatt translations, and the New
American Bible.
18. See, for example, K. Elliger and W. Rudolph, Biblica Hebraica
Stuttgartensia, editio minor (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, 1984), p
1404.
19. Ernst Wurtwein, The Text of the Old Testament (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1957), p 19.
20. As suggested in the Berkeley Version. Smith-Goodspeed and the New
English Bible imply such an interpretation by translating verse 25b: "for
sixty-two weeks it shall stay rebuilt/remain restored," but these translations
of the verb shub find no warrant in the lexicons and merely show the
problem of adopting the Masoretic punctuation.
21. See Payne, Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, pp 383-386.
22. Finegan, Biblical Chronology, section 336.
23. Ibid., sections 194-195.
24. Encyclopaedia Judaica, 14:585.
25. Benedict Zuckermann, "Ueber Sabbatjahrcyclus und Jobelperiode,"
Jahresbericht des juedisch-theologischen Seminars Fraenckelscher Stiftung
(Breslau, 1857).
26. Ben Zion Wacholder, "The Calendar of Sabbatical Cycles During the
Second Temple and the Early Rabbinic Period," Hebrew Union College
Annual 44 (1973): 153-196.
27. Ibid., pp 156, 163.
28. A complete table from 519 BC to AD 441 is given at the end of
Wacholder's article, ibid., pp 185-196.
29. The sabbatical year seems to have started in the fall, Lev 25:8-10.
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"There is enough light to enlighten the elect and enough obscurity to
humiliate them. There is enough obscurity to blind the reprobate and
enough light to condemn them and deprive them of excuse."
(Pascal B., "Pensees," [1670], Krailsheimer A.J., Transl., Penguin: London,
Revised edition, 1966, p.73)
Stephen E. Jones | Ph. +61 8 9448 7439 | http://www.iinet.net.au/~sejones
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