>>>DNAunion: [Richard,] Did you even read what you are criticizing? SEJones
presented a quote that explicitly stated that things like coupling mechanisms
are not actually part of the 2nd law.
>>>Paul Robson: True, but a lot of Creationists don't agree with you and him!
>>>DNAUnion: Coupling mechanisms are not part of the second law, but they
are used by life
to "overcome" the second law. The burning of gas can provide a lot of
energy: but pouring gas over a car and setting it on fire will not drive a
car to the grocery store.
>>>Paul Robson: Okay. Let's see how simple I can make it.
Evolutionists claim: Evolution does not violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Now, NOTE that they do not claim that energy is sufficient by itself to
cause evolution ["pouring gas over a car and setting it on fire will not
drive a car to the grocery store." is implying this]
****************
DNAunion: No. It is stating that those who rely solely on vague appeals to
open-system thermodynamics to explain the ordering and organizing of simple
organics into a functioning cell are overlooking a key part of the picture.
Quick "refutations" of my position using this counter argument is sort of
like saying that there is no problem in a natural explanation for the order
and organization found in a car because there is plenty of energy available
on Earth. Throwing undirected energy at a pile of car parts is not going to
generate a functioning car: throwing undirected energy at a pool of organics
is not going to generate a functioning cell. Note that there is no empirical
evidence that demonstrates my last statement to be incorrect, further more,
common sense, experience, and experimentation so far confirm that it is true.
*****************
>>>Paul Robson: In that case, I agree , a conversion mechanism of some sort
is required.
However, this is NOT a requirement of thermodynamics.
**************
DNAunion: Correct. But coupling mechanisms ARE part of biology and
bioenergetics. We are not talking pure thermodynamics - we are talking about
thermodynamics as it applies to biology.
**************
>>>Paul Robson: Nor is the absence of such a mechanism a violation of the 2nd
Law.
***************
DNAunion: Correct again. But we are not claiming that lack of a coupling
mechanism itself violates the second law (how could we since coupling
mechanisms are not required in thermodynamics). We are saying - if I may
speak for both of us - that for a functioning cell to arise from pools of
simple organics (yada yada yada) WITHOUT ANY COUPLING MECHANISMS would be, as
far as we can tell, a violation of the 2nd law. Present us with convincing,
plausible coupling mechanisms, that can arise prebiotically, and we will no
longer be able to point out this shortcoming in naturalistic explanations for
the OOL (don't worry, we have PLENTY others).
***************
>>>Paul Robson: It is not a requirement to "overcome the 2nd Law" as the
2nd Law does not need to be overcome because it is not violated.
**********************
DNAunion: Why must my opponents keep trying to make the word "overcome" mean
"violate"? Haven't I explained this enough? My position does not claim that
the 2nd law is any way violated, defied, broken, or done away with. It
exists from beginning to end, continually influencing the systems under
consideration. There just must be some other influence/force - including the
2nd law itself! - that outweighs the natural tendency towards increasing
disorder in the system under consideration.
I'll make this quick. Phospholipids will not spontaneously form liposomes on
the kitchen table, in a test tube, in oil, etc. because that would be an
example of increasing order, which is not a thermodynamically spontaneous
process. However, throw them in water and the increase in order of the
phospholipids can take place because there then exists a greater tendency for
the water molecules to increase in entropy. The overall change is an
increase in entropy, but here is the important part, the tendency for the
water molecules to increase their entropy OVERCAME the tendency for the
phospholipid molecules to remain unordered. The 2nd law overcame the 2nd
law!
There is no violation, no defiance, and no breaking of a law of nature.
OVECOME does not mean VIOLATE!
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Nov 10 2000 - 22:55:50 EST