>I wrote:
> >The courts have already lumped ID with
> > creationism. I couldn't find the reference for it (dern it!) or I would
> > post it here.
Terry Trainor wrote:
>The web has several. Remember, this is the same judicial system that
>returned escaped slaves to their owners, and denied women the right to
>vote. Don't rely too heavily on the courts' decisions to be the RIGHT
>decisions.
I agree. Sometimes it takes the morality of the society as a whole to shift
enough for the courts to come to more nearly "correct" decisions. In
regards to female suffrage, the entire society shifted enough to change the
constitution to make it possible.
> > Chris already answered this very well--it's his area of expertise, I
>merely
> > find it interesting. The answer is that there is no such thing as
> > "atheistic principles." There is *human* morality and no other kind. An
> > individual person's morality is a conglomeration of their history, their
> > macroculture (European, Middle Eastern, etc.), microculture (family,
> > community, etc.) and their own experience and intelligence. Religion
> > sometimes factors in and sometimes doesn't.
>
>There have been a rather large number of complete turn arounds in peoples
>lives when they get saved to maintain this position. I've known some
>really scummy low lifes that became decent citizens when they accepted
>Jesus Christ. On the other hand, I have never seen a decent person turn to
>God and them become a scummy low life. If your position is correct, one
>should see an equal number of each.
Why would that be the case? And have you seen conversions that didn't
"take" and the people reverted back to their original "scummy" positions? I
have. There are also numerous examples of people who are have supposedly
accepted Jesus, etc. and are still criminals. Jim Bakker, mentioned in a
previous post, is an example.
> > principles. So did Torquemada, who believed he was doing God's work.
> > Sadists can *always* find a justification for their lusts.
>
>Very true. Like hitler found Sanger's teachings fit his agenda perfectly.
Yes. I admire Sanger very much for fighting so hard against the hideously
destructive Comstock Laws, but she could have been a better person in other
ways. Courageous she was, goddess she was not.
> >First, I found it highly questionable to read a story to children
> > in which many innocent children were slaughtered, and second I realized
> > that the morality of such an entity conflicted sharply with my own
> > morality. If that god was so powerful, why didn't he just kill the damn
> > pharoh and leave the kids out of it?
>
>We do not have the complete picture. If and when we do, it will be much
>clearer. From a childs point of view, he might say "why doesn't Mom just
>clean up the damn mess instead of punishing me for making it?"
please provide a context in which it's ok to slaughter small children en
mass--a circumstance in which they *really* deserve it.
> > see above. Sadists can get justification almost anywhere.
> >
> > Southern preachers found all kinds of support for slavery in the Bible.
>
>This statement, although technically correct, is very misleading. There
>were more Christians OPPOSING slavery than were on the side of slavery.
There were definitely Christians opposing slavery at the time--Quakers,
Unitarians and Universalist among others. Just like now there are
Christians opposing discrimination against gays.
> > 2800 years ago when the Bible was written (and 130 years ago when slavery
> > still flourished in the US) slavery was perfectly moral.
>
>Most Christians do not, and did not 130 years ago, agree with this
>statement.
>
>In fact, 2800
> > years ago it was perfectly moral to sell your children into slavery if you
> > happened to need the cash.
>
>I can't place where scripture says this; can you point out book, chapter,
>and verse please?
daughters, of course, were chattel and frequently sold. There is apparently
no distinction between "maidservant" and "wife"
Leviticus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she
shall not go out as the menservants do.
> > Our culture's morality has shifted so much that
> > slavery is now completely unacceptable. Adultery, which could get you
> > stoned to death 2800 years ago is now not even illegal. Child slavery
>which
> > was fine 2800 years ago can get you hard time in our culture today.
> > Morality doesn't come from either God or the Bible and it never has.
>
>I disagree, of course. When zoophilia and necrophilia groups succeed in
>following in the steps of the homosexual lobby, and get their particular
>perversions legalized, will you still feel this way?
do you think there's any chance that they will? are 6% of every human
population zoophiliac? 6% of *every* human population is homosexual. I
think eventually homosexuality will be regarded similar to how adultery is
now. Not illegal, none of your business really, your choice, not mine
buddy. Certainly not grounds for any legalized discrimination. In regards
homosexuality, I find it endlessly astonishing that you are willing to put
Leviticus above the words of Jesus. You are *Christians* after all. But it
does underscore my point. Morality comes from *you* not the Bible.
Susan
>Leviticus:
21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go
out as the menservants do.
21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then
shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall
have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
21:9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her
after the manner of daughters.
21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of
marriage, shall he not diminish.
21:11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free
without money.
Colossians 3: 22-24): "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and
do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with
sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. Whatever you do, work at it
with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, since you know
that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the
Lord Christ you are serving."
Ephesians 6:5-8 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear,
and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not
only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of
Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as
if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord
will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is a slave or free.
Leviticus xxv: 44-46 Both thy bondmen and thy bondmaids which thou shalt
have, shalt be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye
buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that
do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are
with you, which they begat in your land, and they shall be your possession.
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to
inherit them after you; they shall be your bondmen forever. But over your
brethren, the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with
rigor."
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sat Jul 08 2000 - 11:29:43 EDT