On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:11:47 -0600, Bill Payne wrote:
>SJ>For example, it was OK to hold that there were some errors in our
>>present-day Bibles due to errors of transmission by copying one
>>manuscript from another. It was also OK to hold that the technically
>>Bible had errors if it was gauged by modern-day scientific precision
>>(eg. pi = 3 in 1 Kings 7:23).
BP>Disagree. You overlooked the thickness of the rim. The 30-cubit
>circumference is an outside measurement (O.D.); the 10-cubit diameter is
>an inside measurement (I.D.). If the rim was about 1-inch thick, I
>think the measurements will work to whatever precision is required to
>preserve the integrity of the text.
I haven't "overlooked" this at all. It is one of the standard answers
to this so-called difficulty. It is of course possible that the
writer is referring to an outside length for one measurement and an
inside length for another, but the text gives no hint of that and
therefore the solution to the alleged difficulty seems a bit forced.
Also, it plays into the hands of the critics by even accepting it as a
problem at all. Once having accepted that inerrancy involves 20th
century scientific precision, you would be bound to have to answer for
*every* case where the Bible does not use scientific precision!
IMHO the best solution is to question whether it is a difficulty in the
first place. The Bible is full of rounded approximate measurements
for everything from population sizes, lifespans, and length of king's
reigns, etc., and shows little concern for scientific precision in
any of its statements. The Hebrews were an agrarian people and they
made no known contribution to mathematics or science. When they
needed palaces and temples built they had to hire other nations to do
it for them (2Sam 5:11; 1Chr 14:1; 2Chr 2:13). Indeed, in this very
verse the person constructing the bowl was from Tyre (1 Ki 7:13- 14).
Furthermore, our more exact value of pi was not known in the ancient
world:
"The crude value of 3 was often used for pi, or, the ratio of the
circumference of a circle to its diameter, but 3 1/8 was also known."
(LeVeque W.J., et al., "Mathematics, History of", Encyclopaedia
Britannica, 1984, Vol. 11, pp639- 640).
Even Archimedes, who is usually credited with discovering a more exact
value of pi, did not get it right with 20th century scientific
precision:
"The extant treatises [of Archimedes] are as follows: ...2.
Measurement of the Circle is a short book whose chief proposition
shows that the circumference of a circle is less than 3 1/7 and
greater than 3 10/71 times its diameter. He thus put the exact value
of the ratio of circumference to diameter (known as the Greek pi, pi)
within narrow limits." (Waerden B.L.v.d. & Heath T.L.,
"Archimedes", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1984, Vol. 1, pp1087- 1088)
Indeed, if the Biblical writer (who after all was writing about the
dish, not building it), had used thirty-one for the circumference,
then a critic could argue that that was still too imprecise for an
inspired document! Thus Plimer would apparently not be satisified
unless the circumference was 31.4159 cubits:
"In I Kings 7:23, an altar font in Solomon's Temple was ten cubits
across and thirty cubits around. This means that the mathematical
constant PI (pi) is exactly 3. All school children know that PI is not 2
but 3.14159 and there is nothing to suggest that the Hebrew author
was approximating. If PI is equal to exactly 3, then no machine,
aeroplane, ship, motor vehicle etc. could be designed or would
operate. The Bible's mathematics is consistent and in II Chronicles
4:2, we also read that PI is exactly 3." (Plimer I.R., "Telling lies for
God", 1994, pp17-18)
But in fact this is just a pseudo-difficulty based on the dubious
assumption (shared strangely enough by both scientific naturalists
and scientific creationists), that the Bible writer intended his
words to be 20th century scientifically accurate. Conservative Old
Testament professor Gleason Archer rejects this assumption:
"Doesn't 1 Kings 7:23 give an inaccurate value for pi? First Kings
7:23 says, "He [Hiram] made the sea of cast metal ten cubits from
brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and
thirty cubits in circumference" (NASB). Some critics have urged this
approximate value of three to one as the relationship between the
diameter and the circumference of the circle amounts to a geometrical
inaccuracy, inconsistent with a truly errorless Scripture. They true
value of pi is calculated to be 3.14159 rather than 3.0. This criticism
is, however, devoid of merit. While it is true that the more exact
calculation of pi is essential for, scientific purposes, or for the
manufacture of precision parts in a factory, the use of approximate
proportions or totals is a familiar practice in normal, speech, even
today... It is perfectly proper to speak of the circumference of any
circle as being three times its diameter if we are speaking
approximately...The Hebrew author here is obviously speaking in the
approximate way that is normal practice even today." Archer G.L.,
"Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties", 1982, pp198-199)
BP>The most common sound we will hear in heaven will probably be the sound
>of OEC's slapping their palms against their forehead and saying, "Why
>didn't I think of that." :-)
No doubt! I am happy (even eager) to be corrected of wrong, before the
Day of Judgement. But while I appreciate YEC's anti-evolution arguments
I believe that they weaken their case and waste resources by defending
self-imposed difficult positions on the Bible. In this they play into
evolutionists' hands, by making the YEC positions the issue, rather
than the evolutionists' claims.
But I am not an "OEC" who wants to debate fundamentalist or YEC
arguments with fellow creationists. I support the Australian
counterpart of the ICR (the Creation-Science Foundation/Answers in
Genesis) both in prayer and receiving their Creation journal. But I
deplore the ICR/CSF's attacks on fellow creationists like Hugh Ross
(and soon maybe Phil Johnson-see Morris H.M. "Neocreationism",
Impact No. 296, February 1998 http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-
296.htm). I believe that we have a lot more in common against the
real enemy-evolution!
BP>Just *kidding* folks, we'll *all* be slapping our heads. The really
>sad sight will be, on the Day of Judgement, observing the moment of truth
>hitting those who rejected the truth of God, thereby sentencing themselves
>to eternal separation from His love.
Agreed. But I hope there won't be any there on the Day of Judgment
who have "rejected the truth of God" because they could not accept
YECs insistence that they must believe in a 10,000 year old Earth and
a worldwide Flood.
Steve
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Stephen E (Steve) Jones ,--_|\ sejones@ibm.net
3 Hawker Avenue / Oz \ Steve.Jones@health.wa.gov.au
Warwick 6024 ->*_,--\_/ Phone +61 8 9448 7439
Perth, West Australia v "Test everything." (1Thess 5:21)
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