I like the dialog you have going with Pim. Even though, as
an ex-agnostic, I tend to think he has the better arguments!
Particularly about his grandparents, BTW. I think I
understand where he is coming from on this one
pretty well. Conscience does not depend on one
being a Christian, after all. Nor, in spite of Jim Bell's
assertion, are acts motivated by conscience "stolen"
(or borrowed) from Christianity.
I particularly liked it when you said, "I can only say that for myself,
I don't think much about being "rewarded"
like with goodies or something. The presence of God will be the greatest
reward imaginable and the exploration of the mysteries of God will make
the exploration of the mysteries of science seem as less than dust and
ashes. But this process doesn't just start in Heaven. It is happening in
my life and millions of lives now and proceeds every day. The ascent to
God began the moment I turned my life over to Him. This process has
changed me and continues to change me and I see how the fruit of this
faith is virtue and good works. So doing good things is its own reward
outside of any "other" reward. Or if you like, how about this
formulation:
If the presence of God is Heaven, then every good work manifests God and
makes life more like Heaven for those who have accepted the sacrifice of
Christ.
(And I'm not limiting this observation to *only* the people who have
accepted Christ. Christians believe in the "third person" of God, the
Holy Spirit, who roams about quite unexpectedly and carries God's grace to
all sort of people who aren't Christian.)"
(sorry for the long quote -- I could see nothing to cut from it that
did not need to be there).
Pim, you apparently "saw" an appeal in the above to "doing something"
in order to attain heaven. But that's the reverse of the case. We
(Christians)
"do something" because we are so all-fired glad we are part of God's team!
Some of us do very little. They will attain heaven no less than Mother
Teresa.
What your grandparents did was motivated by conscience. What I did
(much less than they did) before I was a Christian was similarly
motivated. I understand that. I have no doubt that you, too, and others
here who
are not Christians, behave similarly. At least sometimes. Hey, that's the
best I do,
too! Sometimes.
I enjoy your contributions. (Both ofyou).
Burgy