Paul wrote:
> PD> From an TE or creationist perspective, does
> > this verse tell us that:
> >
> > 3. that Christ's preeminant power holds all
> > things together as opposed to natural
> > processes?
> LH> I would put it this way: The fact that Christ's preeminant power holds
> > all things together is the REASON we see regular, "natural" processes.
PD> "But when man sinned, he introduced a disruptive element which has so
> upset the mechanism in certain areas that God must now intervene
> redemptively to maintain it against a total breakdown. In these areas
> natural science will find itself up against imponderables with which it
> is not equipped to deal, for here God is at work in a supernatural way."
> Arthur C. Constance, Science and Faith, Academie Books, 1978.
I've got some good ideas of how this might apply to psychology and
sociology. I have no good ideas of how this might apply to physics,
chemistry, geology, or simple biology. Do you or Arthur Constance have
anything in mind?
> What are your thoughts WRT the general creationist perspective that
> Christ's "holding all things together" is actually related to the need
> to restrain the general disintegration of His "good" creation from the
> supernatural effects of sin?
I've always thought about it this way: the idea that God "holds all
things together" follows fairly simply from God's transcendence,
omnipotence, and omniscience. If anything happens --- even something as
"trivial" as the continued moment-by-moment existence of an electron or a
natural law --- then it must be happening in accordance with His will.
Identifying Christ, the Word of God, as the agent of creation follows
simply from John 1. All of the biblical passages which teach these things
are related to creation and providence; I don't see how to relate them to
the Fall or the Curse.
> Many creationists believe that man's fall, and the resultant effects of
> sin in general, started supernatural processes that need to be partially
> or wholly restrained until Christ's redemptive work for His creation is
> complete. Christ's "holding together" referenced in Col 1:15-17 points
> to that intervention.
It looks like that passage links Christ's action of "holding all things
together" to his role in creation; I don't see any clear link to Christ's
role in redemption.
> Of course, this presupposes that the Bible teaches a complete
> uncorrupted creation at some point in time. Hence, Christ's current
> supernatural intervention would not be viewed as creative in nature, but
> rather it would be redemptive or sustaining.
If you are suggesting that there WAS a fundamental change in the way the
universe operated after the Fall, my answer is that astronomy, geology,
and the other historical sciences strongly imply continuity.
If you are suggesting that there WOULD HAVE BEEN a fundamental change in
the way the universe operated after the Fall, except for Christ's
restraining and redemptive action, my answer is that I don't see biblical
support for that claim.
Do you have something else in mind?
----------------------------------------------------
> If creationists are wrong, then I believe that TE must answer several
> questions ... i.e. how to account for regular, destructive "natural"
> processes in Christ's good creation and what natural processes are in
> fact sufficient to provide the "holding together" required?
I can't answer that one in general, I need some examples of what you (or
others) believe to be "destructive 'natural' processes" that wouldn't fit
into a "good" creation.
FYI, there has been some discussion along these lines in the past few
months (especially on the topic of animal death, and a little bit on
entropy). You might want to take a trip through the archives. Steve
Jones posted some rip-roarin' good quotes on these topics.
-----------------------------
> How do "natural" TE "creative" processes account for the holding
> together of all creation and against what forces?
That needs a three-point answer.
1) When I think of "the holding together of all creation," I think this:
Nothing exists without the continual will of God for it to exist. The
apparent unchangingness of matter's properties is due to God's unchanging
will for it.
2) In that sense, natural processes don't hold anything together; God
does.
3) TEs don't see natural processes *creating* anything; however, we do see
natural processes (under God's sustaining and providential control)
accounting for the *assembly* of some simple things (e.g. protons) into
more complicated things (e.g. heavier nuclei) under the proper conditions
--- conditions dictated by their designed features. "Creation" is a much
grander concept than "assembly," but since I've beaten that topic to death
before, I won't start again.
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"... Another casualty of applied metaphysics." | Loren Haarsma
--Hobbes (_Calvin_and_Hobbes_) | lhaarsma@opal.tufts.edu