Just to say that as I get Spam from @yahoo.etc anything from that server is
automatically deleted. I had problems with aol but they have taken action
yahoo has not .
Sorry to intrude, but can anyone send a nice virus to these spammers!
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Blake Nelson" <bnelson301@yahoo.com>
To: "Tim Morris" <sirrommit@yahoo.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: the Fall of man
> > I have heard this claim, that "real love is not able
> > to be coerced from someone
> > through the use of force or threats. Neither is it a
> > mere automatic or robotic
> > response resulting from some sort of previous
> > programming," on many occasions.
> > However, I have never heard a well thought out
> > explanation of this. About the best
> > I've heard is "How could it be any other way?" which
> > is no explanation at all. I'd be
> > curious to hear yours.
>
> A couple of off-the-top-of-the-head, non-cited points.
>
> First, real love requires freewill on some level, so
> if the response is a robotic response, over which you
> have no choice, you are not choosing to love. It
> seems to me for any response, love or hate or
> whatever, to be meaningful, there has to be some
> element of freewill in making that response or it
> means nothing in an objective sense. However, as you
> point out, you can be coerced into making certain
> "freewill" choices, and I think think the research
> that I recall having read suggests that this does not
> work for the following reasons.
>
> The first part of the answer has to do with what kind
> of response do we want here. And the answer seems to
> me, from a Christian standpoint, to be a change of
> heart, rather than merely a certain type of behavior.
> The OT and NT are full of passages that discuss this
> dichotomy between outward appearances of piety or
> actions and the internal condition of a person, with
> the latter, not the former being the important part.
> How then does one achieve an inward turning of the
> heart, especially if that turning is supposed to be a
> turning out of freewill?
>
> It seems to me that there is a good deal of research
> (thanks to the dominance of the behavioral paradigm
> for several decades in the social sciences) on
> attempts to influence behavior, the efficacy of
> therapy, and other related attempts to modify
> behavior. In the studies of humans (you can't survey
> animals for their subjective sense of things so those
> studies are off the board for our discussion), I have
> not seen any data that suggests that outwardly
> coercive behavior (e.g., electrical shocks, opprobium,
> etc.)by themselves causes an internal changing of
> one's views. I suppose the closest one would get is
> to the "Stockholm Syndrome", where despite the
> life-threatening situation imposed by the hostage
> takers the kindness of the hostage takers is what
> figures prominently in the response of the hostages in
> identifying with the hostage takers (a persuasive love
> of sorts, in a coercive environment). I do not think
> there is any good data supporting the idea that
> compelled behavior by itself leads to internal changes
> in people's views regarding that behavior. For
> example, in addiction situations, interventions and
> imposed treatments are ineffective in and of
> themselves, recovery requires an inward change in the
> view of the addict rather than in the enforced program
> of detoxification, etc.
>
> The seminal message of popular books on therapy, such
> as "If You Meet Buddha on the Road, Kill Him," is that
> the teacher/therapist can only assist the
> student/patient in finding resources that they already
> have and assisting them in developing those resources.
> They cannot dictate what the person should do or how
> they think, they can only persuade them, if you will,
> to think in new ways based on the resources the
> students already have.
>
> So, I find the argument for persuasive as opposed to
> coerced love very compelling. Coercive action may
> result in outward behavior modification, but I do not
> believe that it changes hearts or minds. In fact, I
> think good data exist to support the opposite, that it
> breeds anger and resentment in many cases. I think
> one can see this in therapy situations where the goal
> often is to help the person see things in a different
> way so that they can transform how they think.
>
> It seems to me that the inward working of the Holy
> Spirit within people's lives exemplify how persuasive,
> rather than coercive love can allow amazing
> transformations of how people live and what they
> consider important. I do not see this working of the
> Holy Spirit as coercive at all, but entirely
> persuasive.
>
> Anyway, that's why I find the argument about
> persuasive love pretty compelling based on Christian
> tradition and data from a lot of social science
> research.
>
>
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Wed Apr 17 2002 - 17:48:49 EDT