--On Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:14:34 Woodward Norm Civ WRALC/TIEDM wrote: >Hello Stuart, > >I hope that most here have considered your expressed opinions and beliefs a >challenge, and not a snub. As has been pointed out, you are far from the >only person of Faith that has rejected a triune Godhead, nor will be the >last. > >I guess the points that confuses me are that you seem to separate divinity >from deity, which makes one wonder how many divine beings your theology >recognizes. I would ask about your views concerning the Holy Spirit, but I >am not sure if everyone is ready to hear the other shoe drop. > >Also, in a previous message you said: > >"Obviously no one has lived a life of the same magnitude as Jesus who was >clearly the messiah, or the way to eternal life, but my point (which you >handily left out of your deconstruct) is that by claiming that Jesus was >God, you put that messiahship way out of the reach of mere mortals, you set >his example as being so beyond the pale of human endeavor that none can hope >to duplicate his spirituality." > >I do not quite understand...do you believe that you can live a life that >will somehow grant you "messiahship," if we would only quit putting Christ >on a pedestal? I think that you are mistaken in how our "spirituality" is >ascribed. We are to use the life of Christ as our ideal and example, but if >we could obtain that goal on our own, for what reason would we need a >Savior? > >Norm Woodward >Warner Robins Georgia > >Hi, I am a little mystified. You say that Jesus is divine but not God incarnate. You must have some shade of meaning that I have missed. Is He divine sometimes and sometimes not? Paul says in Phil 2: 6 that His very nature is divine so how can you separate it?
I looked up some places in the scripture where Jesus and others lay claim to His divinity, which I am sure you are familiar with, but I offer them in catagories. They make a powerful statement and this is only a small sampling I threw together in a hurry.
Jesus claims divinity Jesus' enemies recognize His claim The apostles claim Old Testament claims John 5:20 - 23 John 5:17, 18 John 1:1, 14 Matt 22:43 John 10:30 Phil 2:5 - 11 Matt 28:17 John 8: 12- 59
Bob Miller
First of all, Bob, I hope you can forgive my inclusion of your personal letter here in my redress . Now for the fun. Let me reiterate and expand on a statement from one of my previous posts - There should bea distinction between Jesus, the man, Christ Jesus, the saviour, Christ, the divine sonship of all mankind, and God, the Father-Mother or Divine Parent.
Jesus was a man, flesh and blood, he toiled under the sun just like any one else on this planet. Although born under exceptional circumstances, and with the exception of a few remarkable instances in his youth, he led a pretty normal life as a Jewish boy and young man. He did not begin his ministry until he was a full grown man at 30 years of age. Something roused him to this ministry, and that was the revealing of the Christ, (Matt 3:13-17) and the power of Truth over error (Matt 4:1-11), the fulfillment of prophecy (Matt3:3) and the promise of complete salvation from the claims of mortal existence (Matt 3:11-12), the claims of sin, disease and death. He knew his destiny and his mission, and he knew it would be controversial and that he would incur the wrath of the established religious order. But he would not be swayed, for he wielded the sword of Truth in defiance of all supposed material law(Matt 3:10). This living, practical exemplar was endued with the Holy Ghost, or ! the divine Spirit of Truth, which would overcome all material error and establish the knowledge of the everpresent kingdom of God and His Omnipotence, so that all who believed (understood) on him would be saved (Matt 4:16)
This man now endued with the Holy Ghost, was Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus was the Messiah, the saviour of all mankind, the divine exemplar, the good shepherd, the living water. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Gospel unto the world, so that all men, through him, might be saved. God had sanctified and blessed Jesus from his conception, and had been preparing him for his mighty life work throughout his childhood and early adulthood. But he was as mortal as any of us, or else there never would have been a need for Joseph to flee to Egypt. And if mortal, then a flesh and blood human being just like the rest of us. Christ Jesus was to reveal the deathless reality of Life, untouched by the aggressive claims of mortal existence, the claims of sin, disease and death. He proved, through his works that Life was above and beyond this triad of error, as he went about healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, casting out demons, and raising the dead. He also taught his disciples how they could do likewise, and they were able to do the same healing work. How? Jesus revealed the Christ as the true spiritual nature of all mankind, the divine sonship,the immortal reflection of God's being, maintained and nurtured by God, and upheld by His omnipotence.
Jesus revealed through his healing works, that man is forever held in the bosom of the Father, spiritually perfect and complete, never touched by the aggressive claims of mortal existence, which he proved as being nothing more than the aggressive belief of life in matter, a belief which he rebuked time and time again with the power or Spirit of Truth over error. He showed his disciples how to do this, and he expected all who followed him to do likewise. Yet he ascribed all power unto God, over and over. He was deeply humble before the source of all power (omnipotence) and prayed constantly to feel the omnipresence of that power and so that the omniscience of that power would be revealed. Omni- all. God- all-in-all, the great I am. God, the Father. God, the Mother. God the Divine Parent, who holds his beloved creation forever in His bosom. Jesus knew this, and he demonstrated it, yet he claimed that "the works I do, the Father doeth". (pp)
Jesus never claimed to be God, the closest he ever came to that was when he said 'I and my Father are one". He meant, I am at one with my Father, he was referring to quality, not quantity. Man was made in the image and likeness of God and all that God makes is divine. But God is not in His creation, for man is the image and likeness of God. He is above it, looking over it and maintaining it. We, as followers of Jesus, need to know our own at-one-ment with God and how all of His creation is one with God and we will be endued with the same Christ spirit that Jesus had. His early disciples demonstrated it, and they weren't born of virgins. Jesus demonstrated the Christ, the true idea of God, but He was never God. God is the source of all being, for He is all-in all. Just as light is the manifestation of the sun, but the light is not that sun, so too is Christ the manifestation of God, but is not God himself.
How do we achieve messiahship? We need to follow the master in the understanding of spirtual being and by possessing that "mind which was also in Christ Jesus" How do we do this? The Beatitudes are a good place to start. The sermon on the mount as a whole needs to be studied and lived. Why do you think Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Jesus knew the truth of being to be wholy spiritual and perfect and he showed the way to fulfill that perfect spirituality. His mission was to demonstrate salvation. Salvation is atonement or at-one-ment with divinity or God. The road to atonement is humility and devout obedience to see the perfect man of God's creation always. "Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright, for the end of that man is peace." God is our ever present helper in this struggle. When we demonstrate even a little of our God given dominion over material existence, we are partakers of the messiahship, the perfect m! an maintained by a perfect God, through the divine inspiration of Truth, Life and Love.
OK, that's all for now. I would love to go over your citations one by one, but I hope this overview will clear the waters a little bit. Or not.
Peace and grace to you all. Stuart Kirkley
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