Richard and Tim wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
>Behalf Of tikeda@sprintmail.com
>Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 9:35 AM
>To: asa@calvin.edu
>Subject: Re: Do animals ever "sin" (was something else)
>
>
>Richard Kouchoo wrote:
>[...]
>> And this is what separates us from other animals. There is a huge
>> gulf between humans and animals in terms of _results_ of actions
>> and meditative abilities. The young monkey would perceive 'interesting'
>> results from his harassment of the adult but he would not be able to
>> post-meditate his actions in terms of Good and Evil. Hence he cannot sin!
>[...]
>
>I'm not convinced that chimps lack capabilities for pre- or post-
>meditative thought. I recall hearing about a case where a lower-ranking
>chimp male that had just copulated with another female tried to hide
>its erections from the male leader of the group. It clearly knew that
>it had done something "wrong" (within the context of the group) and
>could be punished if the behavior was discovered. It also knew that
>there was evidence that could expose its infraction. Finally, it
>knew how to cover up the evidence, albeit somewhat comically. In
>species where success in navigating social interactions is the key
>to survival, I do think that the ability to weigh the consequences
>of actions in more than a "stimulus -> response mode" can arise.
As much as I want to avoid this issue, Tim is correct that chimps and
baboons do have some ability to perform social calculations. Below are two
examples. In the first, Paul must calculate 1. he wants the root, 2. what
the reaction of the group will be if he yells. and 3. what the consequences
of his yell would be. Thus, he had to plan the activity.
"Forming alliances is only the beginning. If it takes smarts for a baboon
or monkey to keep track of all the facts in his social relationships,
imagine how much intelligence is required when he and his companions begin
to lie."
"Take Paul, for instance, a young juvenile chacma baboon observed in
Ethiopia by Richard Bryne and Andrew Whiten of the University of St. Andrews
in Scotland. One day they noticed Paul watching an adult female named Mel
dig in the ground for a large grass root. He looked around. There were no
other baboons nearby, though the troop was within earshot. Suddenly and
with no visible provocation, Paul let out a yell. In an instant his mother
appeared, and in a flurry chased the astonished Mel out of sight.
Meanwhile, Paul walked over and ate the grass root she left behind." ~
Donald Johanson and James Shreeve, Lucy's Child, (New York: William Morrow
and Co., Inc., 1989), p. 274
Of this same baboon, the observers note that he knew what he was doing!
"Neither of these possibilities is likely, because both of us
saw this young baboon go through the same routine with different
'victims' on different days." ~ Richard Byrne and Andrew Whiten,
"The Thinking Primate's Guide to Deception," New Scientist, Dec 3,
1987, p. 54-57, p. 54
Below, this seems to imply vicious hatred of the neighboring group and
premeditated actions taken to wipe them out. Once again, some planning and
consequences are calculated.
"In the most celebrated case, the males of one powerful community in the
Gombe National Park study area systematically hunted down, attacked, and
destroyed the males of the community next door. In three years time, the
neighboring group had been utterly annihilated, its home range - and many of
its females - taken over by the aggressors. Such violence, never before
witnessed in the history of mammal research, was not the work of some band
of simian sociopaths. In subsequent years, the victorious group was itself
threatened and attacked by males from another nearby community." ~ Donald
Johanson and James Shreeve, Lucy's Child, (New York: William Morrow and Co.,
Inc., 1989), p. 277
animal lying
"A case sent to us by Hans Kummer, the Swiss primatologist,
stretches the imagination to breaking point if we are to accept
the explanation by unintentional conditioning. In the hamadryas
baboons Kummer studies, a single male typically controls a harem
of females. Females may seek contact with other males but the
owner of the harem does not usually permit this. On one occasion,
Kummer watched a female spend 20 minutes shuffling bit by bit over
a distance of only 2 metres. She stayed in a sitting position, so
that she ended up with her head and upper parts visible to the
harem male but her hands were concealed by an intervening rock.
Why conceal her hands? Because there were busy grooming another
male, who was likewise hidden by the rock. Here, if we try to
construct a 'plausible history' that could have conditioned this
behaviour by reinforces, it is no longer sufficient that the
female discriminates between the simple presence or absence of
another individual. Her behaviour shows that she was able to
calculate precisely how the world looked from another animal's
viewpoint--by no means a simple feat even for young humans." ~
Richard Byrne and Andrew Whiten, "The Thinking Primate's Guide to
Deception," New Scientist, Dec 3, 1987, p. 54-57, p. 55
Or what about prostitution--the ultimate thinking of consequences:
"A male chimpanzee in a Tanzanian forest is chewing on the
limb of a monkey carcass that he has caught. Other members
of the hunting party cluster around him attempting to get
a morsel. Juveniles sit on the forest floor below, hoping
that fragments of bone or drops of blood will fall to them.
The beggars in the tree ask for meat with outstretched,
upturned palms, and place their fingertips at or even
inside the hunter's lips in order to get his attention. He
tries to ignore their presence, continually turning his
body away from them. One exception to this indifference is
a female, who carries a sexual swelling and receives the
male's attentions. He allows her to take pieces of the
carcass, which she then shares with her infant.
Occasionally she presents her swelling to him and they
copulate. Meanwhile the possessor of the meat allows one
other chimpanzee, a longtime ally, to take bits of meat
also. This interplay of meat with sex, political networks,
and status displays is typical of the strategic meat-
sharing pattern seen among chimpanzees." Craig B. Stanford,
The Hunting Apes, (Princeton: Princeton University Press,
1999), p. 199-200
I know of a case where a chimp tried to 'lie' to a monkey in order to
capture him. But I can't find it right now.
This being said, chimps and baboons are not the inveterate planners that
humans are, but they are not that much unlike us when it comes to social
climbing. Females give sex to get attached to powerful males and thus
enhance their position in the troop.
glenn
see http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/dmd.htm
for lots of creation/evolution information
anthropology/geology/paleontology/theology\
personal stories of struggle
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