Re: TE-man

From: David F Siemens (dfsiemensjr@juno.com)
Date: Thu Oct 19 2000 - 14:33:04 EDT

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    There is a common misunderstanding about definitions, for descriptions
    are sometimes included. A definition is properly an intensional metalevel
    statement of the equivalence of a word and a phrase. The tradition going
    back to Aristotle also requires that the definitional tree be in terms of
    a property term and its negation. This requirement has to be relaxed
    because there are relations as well as properties. Anyway, the
    traditional definition (per genus proximum et species--if I recall the
    phrase correctly) of "man" is "rational animal" or "rational mortal
    animal." This latter, unfortunately, does not give a reasonable test of
    an entity, for the only sure proof of mortality leads to the conclusion
    that it was human. For a reasonable test we can go to the story that is
    told of Plato, who described the class with "featherless biped." However,
    Diogenes is supposed to have appeared the next day with a plucked chicken
    and the message, "There, Plato, is your man." Whereupon Plato is supposed
    to have revised the description by adding "with flat nails."
    Unfortunately, as is generally the case, there are problems. For the
    definition, is an anencephalic child born to a human pair human? For the
    description, an amputee or a paraplegic?

    In general, a definition must be true, reflecting usage in a language.
    However, there may be a revision. For example, the come up with a term
    for a new notion, the Greek philosophers took hyle, wood or lumber, and
    used it to talk about matter. Sometimes words are invented, but more
    often a new understanding is added, as, for example, in talking of
    particles and waves in quantum physics, though pushing either metaphor
    leads to problems, which "wavicle" does not remedy. There is the further
    problem that the same noise or squiggle may require a context before its
    meaning may be considered.

    You will note that definition is normally ideal. Reality is messier.

    Dave

    On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:24:46 -0500 "Darryl Maddox" <dpmaddox@arn.net>
    writes:
    Now that is a good definition. It may or may not be true but it is a
    valid (in the sense of meeting the necessary conditions) definition. If
    we assume (and I am willing to) most people can agree on the general
    meaning of the words "living", "person"; and how to observationally or
    instrumentally determine whether an object is or is not a body and is or
    is not living AND what those words mean in combination, there is no
    ambiguity. I see a potential problem with the "breath of life" phrase in
    the latter parts of what you wrote because I can not figure out how an
    atheistic doctor could determine either by observation or by
    instrumentation whether or not a body (living or non-living) had it; that
    is why I snipped everything but the first line.

    Do you see the difference between what you wrote this time and what you
    wrote the first time? What you wrote this time may be derivable from
    what you wrote the first time, and the first may be true, but the first
    was not a definition of "soul", whether that definition be true or not.
    What you wrote this time is a definition though again, it may or may not
    be true. I am not aware that being true is a necessary condition for a
    definition. While I would never argue against the proposition that being
    true makes one a better defintion, I don't know that they have to be true
    to still be classified as definitions. It seems to me that if they had
    to be true there could only be one definition of "sandstone", or
    "granite" or "frog" and at least for the rocks I just mentioned, the
    definition depends to some degree on on whose classification scheme you
    use.

     Any logicians in the group have any thoughts on that?

    Darryl
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Allen Roy
    To: Darryl Maddox ; asanet
    Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 7:59 AM
    Subject: Re: TE-man

    Well let's see:

    A soul = living person (by interpretation comparison between KJV and
    NIV

    That seems pretty exclusionary.



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