----- Original Message -----
From: "John Burgeson" <burgy@compuserve.com>
> Glenn wrote: "To say that the future is not preprogrammed by
> God goes against much of what the scripture indicates of God's power."
>
> Amazing statement. That must mean you do not accept
> the validity of the concept of free will?
Burgy,
You really need to go back and look at what I say about freedom and
necessity in F^3 and what I have said here many, many times. Just a month
ago I responded to one of your comments that freewill and determinism are
antithetical. You must not have seen it as you didn't reply. Here is a
rewrite of it. In order to advance the conversation you need to respond to
my points in this regard rather than making the same statement again. Both
freewill and God's foreknowledge are perfectly compatible as is illustrated
by the mathematical object known as Sierpinski's Gasket, of which I have
spoken in the past. You can read about his on my web page:
http://home.flash.net/~mortongr/nonlin.htm
Take 3 stationary dots ( 1,2,and 3), a moving dot (M) that moves according
to certain rules, and a random number generator that outputs 1,2 or 3. Lay
this out on a plane like this.
1
*
M *
*
*
2
3
Now, the random number generator is going to put out a number. Predict what
number! You can't. No one can.You have a 1/3 chance of guessing the number
correctly. The random number generator has complete free will. If you apply
a set of rules which move dot M, you can predict what the total output
will be.The rules are that if the random number generator gives a 1, then
you move M 1/2 the distance to dot 1. If it rolls a 2, then move half the
distance to dot 2 and same for a 3. Mark the new location and repeat the
process iteratively. It begins to look like this (with the parentheses by
the m the iteration number).
1
*
M(0)*
M(2) *
M(1)*
*
*
2
3
I can foreknow the pattern that moving the dot will create. There is
absolutely NO freedom for the moving dot to do anything else other than move
in the pattern I predict. What I don't know is what direction the dot will
move next. Like a rat in a maze, the dot is confined to move in a certain
pattern, but its choices are absolutely free. After 20,000 iterations it
will produce the pattern seen at
http://home.flash.net/~mortongr/sier.gif
Thus the dot may feel perfectly free--indeed it is perfectly free-- but it
is confined to a particular pattern.
Such systems allow for free-will to be united with determinism. Our genetic
system is just such a nonlinear system. We feel perfect free will to choose
this or that course of action, yet we may be confined to certain patterns in
our lives which have been fore-ordained by God.
I would go a bit further and suggest that our genetics predetermines much in
life. There are those anecdotal examples of twins adopted and raised apart
who do things very similarly to their twin.
"Raised together, twins are unusually close, sometimes developing
their own private language. But even when they are reared apart,
twins show amazing similarities as adults. Twins Jim Springer
and Jim Lewis, separated at birth in 1939, were reunited 39 years
later in a study of twins at the University of Minnesota. Both
had married and divorced women named Linda, married second wives
named Betty and named their oldest sons James Allan and James
Alan. More coincidences: both drove the same model of blue
Chevrolet, enjoyed woodworking, vacationed on the same Florida
beach and had dogs named Toy."~Heredity: They'll be the Same, But
Different", Newsweek, Nov. 8, 1993., p. 62
"I quote from a recent article in Science:
'When Oskar Stohr and Jack Yufe arrived in Minnesota to participate in
University of Minnesota psychologist Thomas J. Bouchard, Jr.'s study of
identical twins reared apart, they were both sporting blue double-breasted
epauletted shirts, mustaches, and wire-rimmed glasses. Identical twins
separated at birth, the two men in their late 40s, had met once before two
decades earlier. Nonetheless Oskar, raised as a Catholic in Germany, and
Jack, reared by his Jewish father in Trinidad, proved to have much in common
in
their tastes and personalities--including hasty tempers and idiosyncratic
senses of humor (both enjoyed surprising people by sneezing in elevators).'
And both flushed the toilet both before and after using it, kept rubber
bands
around their wrists, and dipped buttered toast in their coffee."~Steven
Pinker, The Language Instinct, (New York: Harper/Perennial, 1994), p. 327
**
"Another pair of identical twins meeting for the first time discovered that
they both used Vademecum toothpaste, Canoe shaving lotion, Vitalis hair
sonic, and Lucky Strike cigarettes. After the meeting they sent each other
identical birthday presents that crossed in the mail. One pair of women
habitually wore seven rings. Another pair of men pointed out (correctly)
that a wheel bearing in Bouchard's car needed replacing. And quantitative
research corroborates the hundreds of anecdotes. Not only are very general
traits like IQ, extroversions, and neuroticism partly heritable, but so are
specific ones
like degree of religious feeling, vocational interests, and opinions about
the
death penalty, disarmament, and computer music."~Steven Pinker, The Language
Instinct, (New York: Harper/Perennial, 1994), p. 328
"People find these discoveries arresting, even incredible. The discoveries
cast doubt on the autonomous 'I' that we all feel hovering above our bodies,
making choices as we proceed through life and affected only by our past and
present environments....And despite what critics sometimes claim, the
effects are not products of coincidence, fraud or subtle similarities int he
family environments (such as adoption agencies striving to place identical
twins in homes that both encourage walking into the ocean backwards)."
Stephen Pinker, How the Mind Works," (New York: Norton, 1997), p. 20-21
Even death seems programmed by our genes:
"There is also evidence in favor of the genetic determination of longevity
in humans. For example, studies with twins show that genetically identical
twins on average die thirty-six months apart; their lifespans are very
similar. By comparison, fraternal twins die seventy-five months apart, and
randomly selected siblings have an average time between deaths of 106
months. The closer two individuals are genetically, the closer their life
spans." William R. Clark, Sex & the Origins of Death, (New York: Oxford
University Press, 1996), p. 82
>
> At least say, for heaven's sake, that it is YOUR interpretation
> of the scriptures! Try this rephrasing:
>
> "To say that the future is not preprogrammed by
> God goes against much of what I perceive the scripture indicates of God's
> power."
I will at least phrase things the way I prefer. There are many examples in
the Bible of God's foreknowledge Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you
by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked
men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
Seems like God knew before hand what would happen.
Romans 8:29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the
likeness of his Son..."
Romans 11:2, "God did not reject his people, whome he foreknew"
1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according tot he foreknowledge of God the
FAther..."
Ezekiel 26:14 said of Tyre:4I will make you a bare rock, and you will become
a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have
spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
The place has still not been rebuilt since Alexander took it down.
Seems to me that there must be some foreknowledge on God's part. And I will
stand by the way I phrased it.
>
> Burgy (who, quite obviously, does not agree with your original statement
at
> all)
Yes but Burgy also didn't provide any data other than his opinion. Data from
Scripture showing that God can't see the future would certainly support your
contention. Otherwise, it is your opinion, which of course, you are entitled
to.
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