Re: theistic-friendly science

Jan de Koning (dekoning@idirect.com)
Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:05:19 -0500

>Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:44:35 -0500
>To: Moorad Alexanian <alexanian@UNCWIL.EDU>
>From: Jan de Koning <dekoning@idirect.com>
>Subject: Re: theistic-friendly science
>In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19980109162816.21a7fcfa@pop2.uncwil.edu>
>
>At 04:25 PM 09/01/98 -0500, Moorad Alexanian wrote:
>>At 03:09 PM 1/9/98 -0500, Jan de Koning wrote:
>
>>Mathematics is a human invention. Of course, it my be directly linked to our
>>being created in the image of God, but the connection is not clear to us
>>humans. I grant you that God created spacetime and "everything" in it.
>>However, I do not know how God created the number "pi" since that has to do
>>with non existing perfect circles. In fact, all of our theoretical science
>>is a over idealizations of reality.
>
>So, man did not create mathematics, nor any of the other sciences. I
agree with that. Even theology is no more than tryng to describe part of
God's creation. How God gave us brains is indeed not clear to us, nor is
it clear to us, how God is ruling this creation. We theorize, but do so
listening to God's Word in nature and in Scripture.
>
>>
>>We have an intellect and can recognize it in other humans. Why does it
>>require such complicated mathematics to describe nature? Only "intelligent"
>>people understand such a profound description of nature. Intelligence does
>>not come into existence out of the vacuum, therefore, there must be
>>intelligence behind the creation. It can never be self-evident to me that
>>human intellect comes out of nonrational matter.
>
>We cannot talk about anything "behind" creation only about what God shows
us in creation and Scripture. Anything we do more than what God shows us
is speculation. Intelligence is a human characteristic, created by God.
For my feeling giving God a characteristic derived from human beings is
insulting God. To say "We have legs to walk so God must have legs" becomes
nonosense. God is everywhere, also in our brains, but we are made
responsible for our thinking. In the Bible we are told that all our
faculties are affected by sin. To compare God now to our sinful
intelligence is not possible.
>
>>
>>I have no qualms about what you say. But to us humans it is not clear how
>>God is the source of our ideas.
>
>Okay.
>
>>
>>Not in the pursuit of knowledge of the physical universe. I clearly
>>indicated that such a pursuit is not the most important form of knowledge
>>that man needs for daily life. Man must know himself and that is only
>>accomplished by knowing Jesus Christ.
>
>Faith is the most important part indeed, but that faith guides us in all
our knowledge and in daily life. If you start making a separation between
different kind of knowledges, you split your life in two parts, one where
you listen to God, and one where you decide what God might have done. Any
science, and that includes theology, is no more than listening to God, and
trying to describe God's works. I believe that it is very dangerous for
you and your listener's faith life if you want to divide life and knowledge
in two parts.
>
>>
>>I believe that the more "science" you know the closer it brings you to God.
>>But atheists can be excellent scientists. The pursuit of scientific truths
>>is amoral. This is certainly true in physics. However, there are areas where
>>one deals with living beings where the pursuit of scientific truths may not
>>be totally amoral.
>
>It is impossible to do science and not making moral decisions as well.
Think of the developping of the atom bomb. For any human being it
impossible not to be a morally reponsible being. Doing any science cannot
be outside our human life. That unbelievers have eyes and a thinking mind
does not mean that they are always not obeying God's commands. I referred
you before to the OT stories, where God calls heathen nations to punish
Israel. And Christians confess that they always and everywhere need God's
grace, no matter what they are doing. If you don't believe that you are
only partially a Christian.
>>Besides being a professor of physics, I am a husband, father, brother,
>>uncle, etc. in such matter science has little to say. I rely on the Word of
>>God to fulfill such roles. When scientists who are Christians talk about
>>science, they need not talk about God. At least, that is the case in
>>physics. I do not know about biologists. I suppose if you are discussing
>>issues of origins, then God must certainly come ultimately into the picture.
>>I am very much interested in the integration of science and Christianity. It
>>is clear to be that both pursuits will lead to God. But there is no sense of
>>speculating on issues that man is not ready to answer. Most of our
>>discussions are helpful so that we can intelligently discuss some issues
>>with non Christians. I learn a lot from the discussions of others in
>>scientific areas that I am not knowledgable.
>
>To answer this part of the discussion requires more time than we have.
Still, I will try to say something. In the first place, as a professor of
physics you are a father etc. as well. That you listen to the Word of God
in those roles is great. When teaching mathematics I listened to the Word
of God as well as when I discuss matters with my children and the rest of
the family. I try not to live in two different worlds. When I had a
student in my office having difficulties with his faith, because of what he
had to learn, I prayed with him. I agree with you that there is no sense
in speculating on issues that man is not ready to answer. That is one
reason that I do not want to speculate about God's intelligence. That God
rules I will always say, but I am not going to "jufge" God's knowledge,
actions etc. We have to just accept them.
>
>>
>>Most people in the world could care less about science. Nevertheless their
>>concern deals with questions that a more important than scientific
>>questions. Issues of grief, love, hate, meaning, pursue, etc. have nothing
>>to do with science. Therein lies the importance of the Word of God.
>
>Here you are again limiting the importance of the Word of God, in nature
as well as in the Bible.
>God created the world, ergo God wants us to know about His world. That
most people don't care about science is not an argument. Meaning cannot be
explored without studying. Grief, love, hate, meaning, pursue etc. have to
be "studied" as well, and are thus part of science. They are even causing
physical reactions in living beings. I don't think that you can divide a
human being in a mathematical, physical, theological, psychical, logical,
etc. part, even though these are all separate areas for research, that need
each other. Your Intelligent Designer idea is a mixture of physical and
theological knowledge. I reject your conclusions, but you cannot say that
it is purely physical, or purely theological.
>
>Jan de Koning
>Willowdale, Ont.
>