I agree. But these could be in either of two categories -- my
"smoothly blending theistic action" or "matter in random motion".
>Even if
>all the events you cite are beyond the possibility of nature, their
>number is very small in comparison with the first category.
Yes, but "theistic action" in the John-16/... sense is extremely
important, theologically.
>Miraculous
>healings may take place, but the great majority come through "letting
>nature take its course" or by medicine, surgery, &c.
In this thread, my major theme has been the distinction between the two
categories (SBTA and MIRM) described above. As far as I'm concerned,
without SBTA or miraculous-TA, it is deism, not theism.
As far as the ratio of healings in each mode, I agree with you whether
it is miracles vs SBTA, or miracles vs MIRM.
> But there is no reason to think that all the events you note are
>miraculous in the "supernatural" sense. Yes, the Holy Spirit works
>faith, gives charisms &c - but much of what takes place can be described
>& to some extent explained in terms of psychology. N.B. - this doesn't
>mean the Spirit doesn't do them, any more than healing through surgery
>takes place without God.
I've never claimed that the working of the Holy Spirit had to be
miraculous, in the sense that we usually define miracles.
I have emphasized that this must be *either* SBTA or miraculous-TA.
And healing (in 3 possible ways) is discussed above.
> Furthermore - just what do you think God _is_ doing, if
>anything, in the natural processes which obey rational laws - which is
>to say, most of the things that happen in the world?
either smooth-TA or MIRM; empirically it's difficult (impossible?) to
tell the difference. {in fact, this impossibility is probably a tautology,
considering my use of "smoothly-blending" to describe SBTA}
> 1st, it is hardly nature "running wild" if it's in accord with
>rational laws. & I guess you can repeat "deism" if you wish, but I
>don't see how a belief that God is active in everything that happens in
>the world can reasonably be labelled that.
If it's MIRM, then I don't see how there can be any control. (this
doesn't mean there can't be any control, of course)
If there was *never* any theistic action (either smoothly blending or
miraculous) it would sure seems like deism to me. Of course, leaving room
for a few miracles (those recorded in the Bible) means it isn't totally
deistic, but this seems inconsistent with John 16 (etc.).
> Where it needs to begin is the cross - "God himself lies dead".
>& if people can get a glimmering of what this means, that God's glory is
>shown in taking on the suffering, death & humiliation of the world, then
>the idea that God insists on "leaving his fingerprints all over" events
>so he can get all the credit for them will appear ludicrous.
> Isn't Jesus risen? Yes. But note what Paul said he decided to
>preach in Corinth - not "Christ risen" but "Christ crucified".
Paul combines the cross-and-resurrection in almost everything he says
-- for example, in Romans 6:2-4, or I Corinthians 15.
There is, of course, much more to be said about this.
But I'll be in Colorado soon -- for the Boulder conference, plus a visit
with friends -- so until Thursday, Oct 16, I won't be doing any posting or
reading, except for maybe a *very brief* comment late tomorrow morning.
So, George, can we can continue this, beginning 8 days from now?
{of course, you and others can [and hopefully will] continue this without
me, and I'll read what you've been saying when I return, but I'll be "out
of the loop" for awhile in terms of active response}
***************************************************
And, re QM-and-chaos,
> As I noted, & as Polkinghorne (e.g.) has emphasized, the "loose
>jointedness" of connection between events implied by quantum & chaos
>theories means that God has freedom of choice in the world, & can take
>prayer into account in his providential action.
QM could be a *mechanism* for either smooth-TA or miraculous-TA.
And, of course, it's necessary for life. (fine-tuned physical laws,...)
Again, however, this is a big-complex-important area, and (for me, at
least) it's gonna have to wait till I return to Madison.
Craig